Clarification Request from Niantic on 30-day Wayfarer/game account bans
smantz0rZ-PGO
Posts: 279 ✭✭✭✭
Greetings,
Would it be possible for Niantic to provide some clarifications and/or reassurances on the 30-day Wayfarer and game bans being handed out? Initially it was speculated that this would be a tool for cleaning up the abuse ring in The Netherlands. However, it sounds like people across the globe are experiencing game account suspensions due to this. As always, cheaters are unlikely to admit that they were cheating, and everyone thinks their nominations are quality, but many folks seem like they might deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Earlier today, well-known YouTuber ZyoniK made an anti-Wayfarer video raising concerns about this, and I had a nomination rejected via the new automated system. This caused me to question: If a person gets a threshold of nominations rejected via the automated system, are they going to be given a 30-day ban without human approval?
This is causing significant negative attention on Wayfarer in the news, forums, groups, and communities and it would be nice if there could be some clarification around this.
Side note: the automated system is seriously doing a really bad job in the experience of myself and local community.
Comments
What did you nominate that got auto-reject? Can you please share its detail here?
@smantz0rZ-PGO
As I said in the main thread but to be clear @NianticTintino-ING is aware that clarification is needed. I currently have no special knowledge about what we will get, but as there appears to be a lot going on in social media ( I don’t use Twitter and the like so don’t know any details) I’m expect that it will require some thought.
I think it’s fair to say that Wayfarer abusive behaviour has been an ongoing issue. This forum, which is over 42 months old, has been littered with issues throughout that time. So the latest policy has not just popped out of nowhere. It’s a policy for all of Wayfarer and although the recent abuse centred in the Netherlands (well documented in here) was an obvious candidate for its application, the unfortunate truth is that abuse of Wayfarer is a worldwide problem.
@NianticAaron regularily responds in here to cases from around the world brought to their attention. So it should be no surprise that the cases that the team at Niantic are applying the policy to are Worldwide. I know nothing about the details of individual cases. The policy is clear that it can go back 1 year. It is also about repeated instances. That those feeling the pain of this policy, which has been given teeth by involving action across Niantic products, choose to go public with a limited picture of information is their choice about what they are willing to say. Do I believe from those posts that I am seeing a full picture? No.
I cannot fathom why this post was disliked. That dislike it talks more about the reader. I think this is a great question - you had it rejected. Share the nominanation. Unless there is the provision of the POI submission then all we have is someones word it was wrong, but for some reason we have to therefor believe it was wrong.
My gut feeling is a lot of people who work the system are rightly worried. And a lot of people who have submitted sub par nominations are concerned they will get caught up.
I say game on (looking forward to a mass of dislikes). Seriously. If it is AI it needs to learn. I am good with that.
But you know what if you don't do no wrong then whats to worry about.
The current system is being worked. @smantz0rZ-PGO The system is being worked. If you create a solution to help stop it would you tell everyone how it works. Seriously hand on heart here everyone would you tell people how it is worked....
Re better comms. Sure. Niantic all over. Appalling. They could have explained what it is aimed at.
But I am going with my gut. some people will get caught up for doing wrong. Most will not. Nearly all abusers will be (for now till another work around is found). Everyone caught up is probably going make as much noise as possible.
Things liks this. In a short time. People will suddenly go. Hey this is actually OK. It works. New people will not know any different.
Now if only they will apply the same AI to already accepted nominations. Because in my mind. While they exist people will keep nominating stuff that perhaps they should not. And I have NO doubt some of mine will get caught up. But that is OK.
Why is everyone in a panic? If you have done no wrong at all. What you worried by? If you take the basic criteria as a guideline. What there to worry about?
And everyone who is whinging. Let us see your last 50 nominations. Let us see why you think you are hard done by. Prove you were smashed over. Because if all people do is make noise with zero evidence then I call BS.
I see this system as being designed to catch out the serial abusers. Not those that make mistakes. And if this means people submit better nominations even better. I have my doubts. But hey ;-)
Hey there,
Thanks for voicing your concerns.
I assure you that the punishments are handed out after proper investigation by our team. We do not hand out punishments for auto-rejections by the system or for nominations that fall in the grey area. While our team may remove some Wayspots, they do not always trigger punishments. Posts on social media do not always paint the complete picture and thus may be misleading.
We hand out punishments for clear violations of our policies that may include repeated low quality submissions, fake submissions, influencing reviewers, harassing others, participating in voting rings etc.
If someone does not indulge in these practices, there is nothing to worry.
I hope this clears the air and addresses the confusion.
Happy Exploring!
With all due respect posts on social media, you tube etc don't paint a complete picture due to the lack of information.
I got in touch with one of the people Zyonix showed in his video as examples, and they showed me their latest nominations.
Almost all of them were in violation of the wayfarer Criteria, without any grey areas or possible eligibility. From this alone (this was just a snapshot of their wayfarer activity), for me it was already visible that the person definitely deserved a penalty.
So far we have no confirmed case of a penalty being issued wrongly, and someone from Taiwan who appealed his suspension that was absolutely deserved, even got it shortened.
There are a lot of content creators who did no or really poor research, and those that jump on the bandwagon of "Niantic Bad" like Spieletrend did with his video. Firing up a mass panic brings more viewers than doing it correctly, unfortunately.
For example, so far only one content creator even contacted an Wayfarer Ambassador prior to posting to check things out, most of them were only in contact with people outside of any wayfarer community or even activity. That's bad research.
Personally I don't watch any of the creators mentioned but to attempt to switch the focus to bad research after 10 years of a lack of information, indifference to it's playerbase, ignoring of its own Tos, mass dumping of horrible poi into its own system, unwillingness to clean up it's own map, disregard to having timely or even correct information... The list goes on and on and on and on, is native at best.
Naive.
Can't even give us a **** edit option
And still it's bad research if they just jump to straight panic inducement despite what you said
If you are watching zyonik or pokeak and expecting investigate journalism I have some bad news for you.
Yeah, still, I find it very disappointing
They've thrown the baby out with the bath water and left people to draw their own conclusions.
I know that 95% of my very local group of about 60 won't go near Wayfarer now.
Thank you for the clarification and response! My worry is that people are creating a narrative that Niantic is handing out suspensions with no real basis, or for just innocently submitting a Wayspot nomination (though honestly--these complaints are coming from people who exclusively submit through Pokemon Go, and playing that is their primary interest) that turned out to be rejected.
Perhaps Niantic can reach out to some of the more prominent people discussing this, so this conversation isn't so one-sided?
Also, have the emails announcing a warning and/or suspension included the specific nominations or actions from the player that merited a punishment? Something like "Your submission of [NOMINATION NAME] was abuse/violated Wayfarer guidelines by..."? It would help the community to know that when we see another post complaining about an "unfair" suspension that the player received specific reasons why they received a ban, tied to specific nominations or actions, etc.
Yeah I create YouTube content fairly and my wayfarer videos get 25 to 75 views. People want the shock factor and people continue to support the YouTubers who give it to them. You have yourselves to blame for watching their content.
I want clarification about what third party apps they are talking about so I can make a good video about it that will get 50 views 😂 My main question is, does Niantic consider the plugins that help Wayfarers review as abusive third party add-ons and do they consider moving points slightly based on cell placement in that abuse category. I am not talking about moving points way far out from the poi in question to get it into another cell. I mean a few meters.
I make videos to help reviewers and someone left a nasty comment to say I am ruining the game and making it less fun. I considered it a badge of honor and thanked them for their kind comment, which didn't make them happy 😂
I think part of the controversy on social media is why do both the Pogo account AND the Wayfarer account need to be suspended. And if 30 days is too harsh for a first offence.
Yeah the thing is, when only Wayfarer is hit, no one cares. You were also banned or suspended on wayfare, if you were suspended or banned in a game. Teh other way round didn't exist before, now it does and it actually just follows what should have been before.
The 30 days is not the first offense, it is actually meaning a bunch more than 2 or one very hefty one.
This is the explaining I currently do across social media but it's easier to **** Niantic bad
Sorry if my opinion is not shared, but my community is extremely paranoid about submitting anything going forward, myself included. It's one thing to ban the Wayfarer account. But to ban the Pokemon Go/Ingress account is a bit extreme. No one in my local community wants to take that risk. Niantic is notorious for being a very misleading company, so nothing they say or do eases our minds that they might find something wrong with a submission and get trigger happy with a ban wave. None of us are willing to take that risk. We basically did THEIR work, expanded THEIR platform, and this is how they repay us. No thanks.
It's unfortunate, because quite a few of us have created over 1,000 wayspots in our local surrounding area. However, we are done. Such a shame that it's come to this.
I’m going to give my opinion. I think there was an ambassador who had a vendetta against an abuse case that they took personally for some reason and behind the scenes they were pushing for some sort of punishment reform. That was their ambassador platform. And they were successful. Congratulations. But what wasn’t taken into account was that although several wayfarers get discouraged by abuse, now you’ve discouraged hundreds or thousands of wayfarers with this vague threat of punishment. So which scenario was worse for wayfarer? Some small, unpunished cases of abuse, or thousands of wayfarers quitting out of fear?
As @TheFarix-PGO said, there are no deterrent effect to the players if the ban only affect their Wayfarer account. If people are not ever checking their email for first warning message from Wayfarer and keep their behavior, then 30 days ban is deserved.
Although I would prefer that some Ingress players 'abusing' invalid Wayspot reports to remove anchor Portals especially from France and the Netherlands should be deserved the ban too.
@IamStacyP-PGO
To reassure you, your opinions are welcome, and the points well made.
I understand the feelings you are expressing.
You have to go with what you feel is comfortable for you.
Things at the moment feel very heated and there seems to be a whirlwind of paritial and mis information creating a (I suspect deliberate) confusing picture. @NianticAaron has provided some information and I hope more clarity will emerge.
What you decide to do going forward is your choice, so take some time, but keep a close eye on how things develop. You and your community can decide the best way forward for you.
I nominate to help the community, but it its not worth risking to get my Pokemon account banned. I follow the guidelines to my best knowledge, but get things rejected (because the reviewers).
I am truely concerned to be given a not deserved ban, given the history of how Niantic make decisions and then I know it is impossible to get in contact with someone for help.
And I havnt written anything about "my decision" because what the point? I have learned that no one at Niantic listens.
Im glad that there is some response now.. But still not sure if I believe it.
As you can see there is not much trust and when I read my own thoughts I my just conclude, that Wayfarer is not worth my time.
Niantic have been digging there own grave by not responding, in this matter and others (like not fixing bugs).
Abusive reporting is also a part of this new ladder, to be a punishable offense.
The only problem will be that it usually requires a forum post to get that sorted out
To support what Eli says, we see some known abusers trying to spread more misinformation and distrust, even here on the forum.
Be careful while interacting with people that are not Niantic or people like ambassadors, or otherwise Niantic affiliated people.
We will absolutely say something to Niantic when something goes very wrong
If people should only listen to Niantic, the community would be very quite. We have learned that Niantic never say anything usefull (just look at Routes) the only source of info is from other users.
Experience has informed people that Niantic will do nothing about it.
@ChristinaRS2610-PGO you will find no argument from me that the lack of communication around routes is anything other than what not to do in my personal opinion. And yes it will sit in the background having an effect on how we view Niantic.
However I think that it is best in this situation to try and keep clear waters as best we can. I hope that there have been changes in the communication lines between the wayfarer team and the wayfarer community. All of the Ambassadors are working hard to feed in the points made and raising them directly with the team. I know that won’t be obvious but it is happening and hopefully communication has been better over the past year and will continue to improve.
Agree. I think Ambassadors have a tough (and largely thankless) job, but I think it's important for all Ambassadors to remember that they are advocates for the players, and I've read a few posts here and there where this doesn't always seem to be the case.
I said to be careful because there's a lot of misinformation out there, not that you should only.listen to Niantic