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What should be classed as temporary?
Gazzas89-PGO
Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭✭✭
I'm asking this because very often people will argue temporary fir things like murals, or as my example before, a canal boat used as a shop that hasn't moved in decades, but because it could one day move, it must be temporary. To me, temporary shoukdnt be based on "one day, this wont be here" or "one day this might move" as nothing should pass by that logic then, eventually everything will leave. To me, temporary should be "this will, undoubtedly, move sometime in the next year and wont return here" or "this will be removed soon".
Basically, temporary should be definitive, not potentially
Answers
I can see why the canal boat would be seen as temporary/seasonal, especially without any evidence.
But yes, the definition of temporary for reviewing should be a definitive, not a potential.
I think in a year of reviewing I've only used the "Temporary or Seasonal Display" two or three times.
Use for nominations that are temporary displays (e.g. art installations) or only exist during certain times of the year (e.g. Christmas decorations).
Nominations that are images of objects that are not permanent
This includes seasonal displays that are only put up during certain times of the year.
I used it twice on Christmas decorations in a city park. I can't remember if/what the other rejections I may have used it were for. A political campaign flyer, perhaps.
As a reviewer, obviously I do my best to verify the candidate appears to physically be there. Sometimes Satellite and Street Views can support something as having been there 10+ years. Does that mean it's permanent and won't be removed tomorrow? Of course not. I think it's more important to use judgement on whether or not the candidate by intent appears to be temporary or not have a permanent location.
A food truck (typically) by intent moves from location to location, same as a mobile library. But one that has information supporting that it doesn't move (and probably a literal statement saying it doesn't move, not just a "permanent address") would definitely be a different consideration.
Murals are made of paint, paint fades. Buildings eventually crumble. Parks fall to neglect or close. Nothing is permanent. As with the boat in your other thread, of course the business could close or choose to relocate, as could any business. If either happens, I would consider it the responsibility of the local community to report closure or submit an edit location request, as applicable.
I did mention that it's not moved in 2 decades, it's still on google maps from years ago, the website for it says specifically where its located, I'd say that's all proof
Philosophically, everything is temporary; you, me, the planet, the universe. Therefore nothing is eligible lol
Jokes aside, frankly if something is obviously moveable (eg. it's on wheels or has been clearly temporarily mounted) or is intended to be moved around or placed on display for seasonal purposes, then that should be deemed temporary. Everything else should be fine.
People argue that murals are temporary because they could be graffiti and graffiti is bad? It's odd reasoning, sure some graffiti might be painted over, but how is the objective reviewer to know that? If it's generic graffiti, that's ineligible anyway (which probably would be painted over), if it's a nice mural, it will most likely be longer-lasting. Either way, you review it for what you can see not for what you think might happen. If it gets removed later on, report a portal removal.
As for your boat example, I can't remember its actual context, but it seemed like an interesting with cultural value. It's definitely unique to the billion generic bridges, footpaths, gazebos that everybody else keeps submitting.
The boat is k12 ive looked at the website
@Dazzz12345-ING no it isnt, it's for all ages over 4. They do classes morecaimed at children but do adult ones too and it's open for use of all, you really are watching now arent you?
But surely if the classes are mostly aimed at children, without parents being involved, that designate it K12 in the same manner as a scout hut or a nursery or even a college that has some adult learners?
@gazzas89-PGO if you have trouble getting approval in the traditional review process, I'd recommend making a Small Business Recovery nomination. I'd imagine this business is suffering in the pandemic.
It's only the classes, and even then parents can cone along and they do classes for adults too, its open for drop in at all times to anyone over the age if 4 ..... well when it wasnt **** because of the pandemic
Is it not more applicable to be considered like a playground? Those are obviously geared towards children (heck, we typically have "age appropriate" signs accompanying playgrounds, now), but anyone can go to them and parents / sitters are usually there as well. I always feel like k-12 was to apply more for places generally not acceptable for adults to not be "snooping" around.
Disregarding "generic business," would you consider a place like Chuck E. Cheese or **** Joe's (that hyperlink might not work, it's an indoor playplace) to fall under the k-12 rejection reason?
Genuinely asking because I'm not sure, either. And I think I'm to blame for bringing up the boat in a thread intended to be about what counts as temporary.
I have no clue what a Chuck E Cheese or a 4 Star Joe's is, so im not sure I could say if they're K12 or not.
Anyway, what I was getting at was that if it's business is predominantly for a younger audience, and when it's open, it's mostly - let's say 75% of their opening hours - strictly for under 18s then it would be K12, would it not?
If parents are allowed in on the classes for the under 18s, then no, it wouldn't be K12.
I'm just trying to see it from all angles - I don't want to say it's definitely this or that and then find out I'm wrong
Chuck E. Cheeses is a pizza franchise that includes a game room and an animatronic show for kids. It is the restaurant chain that was the inspiration for FNAF.
What's FNAF?
Five Nights at Freddies. One of the most popular and well known horror video games ever published.
Both are casual dining & arcade style games and/or play places. Almost every (US) child has gone to and/or had a birthday party in one. Chuck E Cheese even serves alcohol (for the adults, of course). I would argue them as culturally significant community gathering places for fun, entertainment, and mild exercise. Specifically geared to children, but not generally "protected" areas like a school.
Let's see... The most elaborated AMAs state:
According to NIA OPS, “If it is only for K12 age children, it should be rated with a one star. If it is for adults and kids it can be rated based on the other criteria.”
And,
I am told that if they’re full-time Cadet or Scout buildings where the primary purpose is gathering of people in the K-12 age range with a membership component, it would be considered similar to a private daycare center and ineligible. However, if it’s a public gathering place that’s occasionally used for Scout or Guide meetings, then yes it would be eligible.
The Wayspot Acceptance Criteria really only elaborates on schools or day care centers, so relatively useless for this.
I feel like I'm missing something, but the only Casey clarification I could find was this:
Again, I don't entirely disagree and I see your points fully. I feel like I'm missing a clarification, somewhere, because I thought that was a specific "50%" clarification.
Personally, from my interpretation of the guides, a place generally open to the public but is still kid oriented would be acceptable. I did look at the website, though, and the number of children's classes is a little concerning, so I'm honestly not entirely sure.
Ah, I don't do horror, so not familiar with it 😅
Yeah, the number of children's classes is why I'm verging more towards to it possibly being K12.
Like yeah, it does adult classes, and in the case of your Chuck E Cheese example, alcohol for the adults, so both the boat thing and Chuck E Cheese wouldn't be strictly K12.
The boat could definitely pass as being a unique business because I'm not familiar with many boats that do art classes or whatever, so that definitely helps it stand out but again, like you said, the amount of children's classes are concerning, especially if parents aren't involved with them.
I was frustrated by some nominations I made a football stadium near me. They were retired numbers of significant players that are on permanent display. They were deemed temporary because the stadium is used primarily during fall and winter months. While there are a few evens during the rest of the year, the facility is seasonal even though anyone can go in when the gates are open, which is most weekdays. This is not a case of seasonal/temporary.
What's FNAF?
How can you not know if chucky cheese, it's that really creepy resteraunt chain In America where they have animatronic round the resteraunt playing songs while people eat .... it's what five nights at Freddie's was based on
The adults are allowed to be there with their children, dont know if the website got that across, but the website does say it's from 4 year old and up to adults, the classes are mostly aimed at children but it is drop in for any age
To me I would say that if it's open to the public all year, but puts on events half the year, it's not seasonal or temporary, as it's open all year
To my understanding, Chuck E Cheese is only North America based. Many of our community wouldn't immediately get American cultural references.
I couldn't an appropriate gif, but yea "creepy animatronics" comes to mind. Maybe that's why they serve alcohol.
I'm British and have never been to america but I knew about chuckies when I was a child
Getting off topic. But I have a friend that worked at Chuck-E-Cheese in high school. They stole one of the Chuck-E mascot heads and took humorous albeit mildly inappropriate photos with it 😂
Define mildly inappropriate lol
@gazzas89-PGO was pretty sure some of them were still floating around the internet. Mildly NSFW haha
EDITED-- removed the link because it actually showed the image. Google Chuck E Cheese smoking h.o.o.k.a.h., one of the first image results.
This person has since gone on to work on an **** vaccine, among other impressive things, and is one of the smartest people I know lol
Found it, that's hilarious
Back to the seasonal argument, I don’t even Think that if something closes for a couple months a year that it is automatically seasonal.
where I’m at, there are a lot of wayspots that are very valid, but are seasonal. Because of harsh winters, golf courses, trails, Playgrounds, ball fields, tennis courts, and parks are all inaccessible for Half of the years. Fountains are shut off, as they would freeze up, piers are taken out. And then things like ski resorts are open throughout the winter.
the seasonal logic could easily be taken too far and make it so that areas with 4 distinct seasons would lose a ton of valid wayspot potential.
I agree, my argument for seasonal would be if it's only open 3 months of the year and is shut the rest that's seasonal
Is it physically removed when it is shut down or is it simply closed? Something that is seasonal means that it is only at a specific location for a short period of time and then physically removed for the rest of the year. It has nothing to do with whether something is open for a short period of time or not.