@NianticAaron Well, I guess I am in the same boat. Restaurant chains get a 100% reject, no matter what you say. That is my best judgment.
If you want chain restaurants to be waypoints, go ahead and add them yourself, should be easy to do. Or drop a rule on the community "Restaurant Chains must be accepted". It would be something completely new to me.
It probably took more than one review (I would hope so!). We asked for an example of our bad reviewing (I also got this email) and were given one.
I'll emphasize that both this example and mine do not appear to have been approved. Both are in areas where approvals come quickly. This would indicate the broader community agrees that these are not eligible wayspots.
I believe that review date means it was under the new flow. Generic business would have been the rejection reason. Once that's selected the review is over.
Niantic believed my unresolved reviews would have earned me enough upgrades to give me 11 of them. And yet they don't think I can correctly review a nomination of a logo for a chain restaurant submission.
After reading through all these posts I concluded that Niantic has - as they did before - completely lost contact with reality. Instead of crushing down on those, who are spamming the map with nonsense nominations they started to go after those who try keep a little bit of order within the chaos. This is utterly mad, just my 5 cents.
I, personally, try to review nominations every once in a while. But after two or three I simply stop it. Actually, it's a waste of time. I don't see the benefit to do it, neither for me nor for Ingress.
That is when the nomination is of a business. But in this example, the nomination is a sign and not a business, so using that to reject is not a valid use of the field and a reason for Niantic to warn reviewers. If the OP did use "generic business" to reject the sign, then I must say that the warning they got is correct.
I don't remember exactly where we were in the thread. My "warning review" was for a generic chain gym, which I rejected as "generic business".
OP's warning came for a logo at a chain restaurant, which since it was before the review flow change would have been rejected for ORC, I believe.
Under the new flow I can see your point. Don't reject the logo for "generic business". In that case since the nomination is for the logo and description talks about a restaurant, then reject for title/description. Either way, the result of the same: the nomination is rejected. When Niantic wrote back with this example, they didn't tell OP that that wrong reason was used, rather they said it should have been accepted.
Personally, if the submitter of OP's "warning nomination" had shown us that this generic chain/beer/burger/sports bar thing was somehow singificant or different to the community.... yeah, I could see approving it.
You are mixing up the discussions. I was told I reviewed a logo for a chain restaurant incorrectly, and that I had rejected it (under "Other Rejection Criteria") when I should have accepted it. @JojenReed64-PGO also reviewed this nomination and also rejected it, but he was told his nastygram was about a Planet Fitness reviewed after the update. My review was done BEFORE the update if that matters, but I think that under the new system I would have marked it "Generic Business"
And even if we did review incorrectly - which I do not believe we did - these emails to "start reviewing correctly or lose your accounts" explain nothing and go against the guidance to use our best judgement. If I did something egregious like reject multiple nominations with no cars in sight for "License Plate" then that might warrant an email - as long as it gave me instruction as to what I did wrong.
Today the ambassadors had one of our regular meetings with Tintino and we raised the above situation regarding @cyndiepooh-ING , as well as similar situations involving @ElizionK-PGO, @JojenReed64-PGO, and others. Collectively, we shared the following sentiments with Niantic:
The nominations that spawned these emails appear to have been within the "grey area" and were reasonably rejected under the instructed mindset of using your best judgement.
Emails like this are both unhelpful to individual reviewers and discouraging to the community at large.
Reviewers should never receive punishments for grey area situations such as this.
We discussed the situation for a bit and were told the following:
These emails are not punishments and are intended to be advisory/educational. Internally @cyndiepooh-ING, @ElizionK-PGO, and @JojenReed64-PGO did not receive any type of punishment on their accounts (such as a strike or "points", etc).
The email incorrectly implied that a pattern of incorrect reviewing was detected, when in fact it was one nomination. (An email template appears to have been misused and no pattern was identified.)
The effected users should be receiving a follow-up email redacting/clarifying the advisories as needed.
Furthermore, the following also came from this situation as a result:
Niantic has committed to improving these advisory emails to make them more useful and seem less like a punishment, and this should happen within the next several weeks.
Niantic may temporarily reduce the number of these emails sent as users are continuing to familiarize themselves with the new review flow.
thank you @AisforAndis-ING . if i actually get any kind of email then i will let y'all know and resume reviewing. but at this point i will believe it when i see it.
This sounds pretty good, but I'm still concerned about the particular example that @cyndiepooh-ING described. It didn't seem to fall into a "grey area." In fact, it seemed like a clear rejection. So either Niantic needs to admit their error in (at minimum) this particular case, or Niantic's understanding of the criteria is so far apart from the community's understanding that something needs to change urgently.
Huge thanks to @AisforAndis-ING and the rest of the ambassador staff going to bat for the community. I very much appreciate you all for bringing this situation immediately to the attention of Niantic and for stressing to them the serious impact it was having not only on those like me who were directly affected but on the reviewing community at large. The one thing we know for sure that Niantic got right was that they picked some fantastic ambassadors! I wish I could give you all a hug!
I am glad to see all the above clarification but have yet to receive any email on the subject. I will post when I do.
Thank you @AisforAndis-ING . That's a reasonable starting point. We appreciate the efforts of you and all the ambassadors in this.
There is seemingly a management attitude, culture, mindset that needs to be improved. Actions are not thought through well for how they will be received and what effect they have. Niantic management also appears to display an attitude that shows disdain for their most active and avid users. It comes across like they want us to go away.
Niantic games are meant to be social experiences. They rely upon strong communities. These most avid users that Niantic treats as if they want them to go away are the leaders of communities. Court those players and treat them well. Recent actions were not how to do that.
None of what Niantic said is comforting nor does it clarify or help to quell the uncertainty and discomfort I'm feeling. And I can only assume I'm not alone here.
The abuse ladder policy (https://niantic.helpshift.com/hc/en/21-wayfarer/faq/4275-wayfarer-abuse-enforcement-ladder-policy/) says nothing about 'advisory/educational emails'.
How are we to know when these emails are 'advisory/educational and not an email that generates 'strikes' that might lead to a punishment?
And if there is a system of 'points' or 'strikes'...Maybe it would be helpful to post the system publicly?
The statement said the effected users would receive a follow up email. Is this referring to just the three names mentioned or does it include any other users who received an incorrect email?
Are we just greasing the squeaky wheels or is this comprehensive?
Finally as regards Niantic commitment to improving these "advisory emails": Until such a time that you can confidently say that anyone logging on to review understands with at least a modest degree of certainty what is and isn't 'correct reviewing' maybe it's best not to send any at all.
If the submission had actually been for the restaurant, I could accept that it would be a "grey area" (though even then Niantic could certainly clarify how they want their criteria applied to restaurants). But the submission wasn't even for the restaurant, it was for their logo. That's what takes it clear out of any "grey area" and into clear rejection territory.
No one from Niantic has bothered to write absolutely NOTHING here, nothing at all. The ambassadors had a meeting with Niantic and they exposed these recent issues and Niantic replied to them that they will do better next time, doesn't that ring a bell for anyone?
If anyone from Niantic cared one iotta, they would have promptly posted here that message, showing that they cared. They didn't.
But as they have talked now to the ambassadors, suddendly everything is OK and everyone will be back to their free job, waiting for the next nasty surprise from Niantic and then again we will see the same again, some voices, silence from Niantic, ambassadors will say that it's OK that we must get back to work. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.
I disagreed with the above, for a variety of reasons.
One of the key advantages of having Wayfarer Ambassadors is to do exactly as listed above: the Ambassadors are advocates for the Wayfarer community, and liaisons for communications with Niantic. Their word is good enough for me, and I know that if Niantic doesn't follow through on their promises then the Ambassadors will follow up in their way. Although I would like to see more of the human side of the Niantic Wayfarer team on these fora, I am happy enough with the proxies! Communication filtered through the Ambassador team is still communication of a sort.
I work in process improvement, so I promise you that I'm trying to keep the focus on fixing the whole system, while using real examples to illustrate the impact of the problems.
Annnnnnnd now you've got me itching to do a fishbone diagram on this whole mess.
It doesn't take really any effort to post a message stating that they will look into the issue. This is basic stuff that shouldn't require that anyone proxies the messages.
Niantic has been lying and laughing at all the wayfarers for a very long time and you still think that everything is OK thanks to the ambassadors.
Do you remember how Niantic stated after the 4square dumps that they had learnt the lesson and they would do it better next time? And then they do Courts of the World and India.
Remember: All Niantic employees are paid. Ambassadors and the rest of wayfarers do all of this in their own time. People spend money on gas, they spend their time finding nominations, reviewing, etc... and Niantic won't even reply when they are shocked.
And many of the people have developed a dependency issue, they must keep on reviewing, nominating, no matter how terrible Niantic treats them, they always come back. It's terrible to read these messages and then people like you stating that it's OK because Niantic have said to the ambassadors that they will treat wayfarers better next time.
Keep in mind that these ambassadors have written that they already passed feedback about many of the issues of the new review flow, but Niantic didn't act on them, they kept their plans and schedule.
It's good that things are being worked out, but it shouldn't take the ambassadors getting involved before Niantic acts to correct the situation. This went on for a whole week and Niantic has yet to comment directly on it to the community. It is also not a good look on Niantic's part not to communicate this directly to the community. The ambassadors should not be Niantic's only point of contact or communication with the Wayfarer community, but it seems that Niantic is putting them in that unenviable position.
I mean, look at the last AMA. It really wasn't an AMA at all, but an excuse to publish their roadmap without addressing any questions from the community. That is why I don't have much faith in the current AMA and why I posted my questions publicly and to the form.
Anyone who needs to step away from Wayfarer to take a break is encouraged to do so. Yes, the process works better when more people are engaged. However, no one should be involved with a system or a company that they think is causing them harm, lying to, or laughing at them. Before I became an Ambassador, my favorite phrase was "we need to stop caring more than Niantic does." I still fundamentally believe that. If you believe you have proof that Niantic doesn't care about the Wayfarer program or the people involved with it, please take a break. Those who think there is something to salvage will keep working towards that.
I work in process improvement, so I promise you that I'm trying to keep the focus on fixing the whole system, while using real examples to illustrate the impact of the problems.
Annnnnnnd now you've got me itching to do a fishbone diagram on this whole mess.
I learned something new -fishbone diagram- and I like it. It would be interesting to see what you come up with...or open ot up to a forum brainstorming session.
What do you think the effect is?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I'm seeing two effects.
The first effect is user dissatisfaction and confusion.
The other effect is the abuse ladder and educational emails not working as intended.
update: no email as of yet. but i find it interesting that two people posted examples of ai rejecting similar photos of business logos to the one i was told i reviewed incorrectly. at least similar to my eyes. i won't share their screenshots but they may add them on here if they wish. but interesting niantic tells me i rejected incorrectly, but trains their ai to review as i did.
@cyndiepooh-ING as the weekend has begun I would assume that an email will not be sent over the weekend, We felt that the key points that Andis has covered should be conveyed without delay, hence the post. We hope it won’t take too long but the wayfarer team already had a packed schedule to get through on Friday. I fully understand and it is right and proper to expect the email to have the message direct from the Wayfarer Team and that is what you need before considering recommencing reviewing. But in practical terms I think you should shift you expectations of when it will arrive and that will be less stressful.
I'll be here representing those who previously got an educational email but did not get promised an apology clarification letter! I'll let you know if I ever receive one. :)
Comments
@NianticAaron Well, I guess I am in the same boat. Restaurant chains get a 100% reject, no matter what you say. That is my best judgment.
If you want chain restaurants to be waypoints, go ahead and add them yourself, should be easy to do. Or drop a rule on the community "Restaurant Chains must be accepted". It would be something completely new to me.
It probably took more than one review (I would hope so!). We asked for an example of our bad reviewing (I also got this email) and were given one.
I'll emphasize that both this example and mine do not appear to have been approved. Both are in areas where approvals come quickly. This would indicate the broader community agrees that these are not eligible wayspots.
I believe that review date means it was under the new flow. Generic business would have been the rejection reason. Once that's selected the review is over.
Niantic believed my unresolved reviews would have earned me enough upgrades to give me 11 of them. And yet they don't think I can correctly review a nomination of a logo for a chain restaurant submission.
After reading through all these posts I concluded that Niantic has - as they did before - completely lost contact with reality. Instead of crushing down on those, who are spamming the map with nonsense nominations they started to go after those who try keep a little bit of order within the chaos. This is utterly mad, just my 5 cents.
I, personally, try to review nominations every once in a while. But after two or three I simply stop it. Actually, it's a waste of time. I don't see the benefit to do it, neither for me nor for Ingress.
That is when the nomination is of a business. But in this example, the nomination is a sign and not a business, so using that to reject is not a valid use of the field and a reason for Niantic to warn reviewers. If the OP did use "generic business" to reject the sign, then I must say that the warning they got is correct.
I don't remember exactly where we were in the thread. My "warning review" was for a generic chain gym, which I rejected as "generic business".
OP's warning came for a logo at a chain restaurant, which since it was before the review flow change would have been rejected for ORC, I believe.
Under the new flow I can see your point. Don't reject the logo for "generic business". In that case since the nomination is for the logo and description talks about a restaurant, then reject for title/description. Either way, the result of the same: the nomination is rejected. When Niantic wrote back with this example, they didn't tell OP that that wrong reason was used, rather they said it should have been accepted.
Personally, if the submitter of OP's "warning nomination" had shown us that this generic chain/beer/burger/sports bar thing was somehow singificant or different to the community.... yeah, I could see approving it.
You are mixing up the discussions. I was told I reviewed a logo for a chain restaurant incorrectly, and that I had rejected it (under "Other Rejection Criteria") when I should have accepted it. @JojenReed64-PGO also reviewed this nomination and also rejected it, but he was told his nastygram was about a Planet Fitness reviewed after the update. My review was done BEFORE the update if that matters, but I think that under the new system I would have marked it "Generic Business"
And even if we did review incorrectly - which I do not believe we did - these emails to "start reviewing correctly or lose your accounts" explain nothing and go against the guidance to use our best judgement. If I did something egregious like reject multiple nominations with no cars in sight for "License Plate" then that might warrant an email - as long as it gave me instruction as to what I did wrong.
It seems inappropriate for them to be threatening active community members and valued Wayfarers.
@NianticAaron you can answer a poll https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/49138/were-you-satisfied-with-niantics-compensation-gift#latest but you cannot respond to me on this issue? where was my thinking wrong on this review? why should this have been accepted? if you can't explain that, where is my apology for the threatening email, the retraction, and the assurance this won't happen again? and that my wayfarer and pokemon go accounts are not in any danger.
I think I’d bet that you’ll never see any of that.
Hey all,
Today the ambassadors had one of our regular meetings with Tintino and we raised the above situation regarding @cyndiepooh-ING , as well as similar situations involving @ElizionK-PGO, @JojenReed64-PGO, and others. Collectively, we shared the following sentiments with Niantic:
We discussed the situation for a bit and were told the following:
Furthermore, the following also came from this situation as a result:
Thank you for continuing to share your feedback!
thank you @AisforAndis-ING . if i actually get any kind of email then i will let y'all know and resume reviewing. but at this point i will believe it when i see it.
This sounds pretty good, but I'm still concerned about the particular example that @cyndiepooh-ING described. It didn't seem to fall into a "grey area." In fact, it seemed like a clear rejection. So either Niantic needs to admit their error in (at minimum) this particular case, or Niantic's understanding of the criteria is so far apart from the community's understanding that something needs to change urgently.
Huge thanks to @AisforAndis-ING and the rest of the ambassador staff going to bat for the community. I very much appreciate you all for bringing this situation immediately to the attention of Niantic and for stressing to them the serious impact it was having not only on those like me who were directly affected but on the reviewing community at large. The one thing we know for sure that Niantic got right was that they picked some fantastic ambassadors! I wish I could give you all a hug!
I am glad to see all the above clarification but have yet to receive any email on the subject. I will post when I do.
100% agree. Restaurants need to be noteworthy, not cookie-cutter.
Thank you @AisforAndis-ING . That's a reasonable starting point. We appreciate the efforts of you and all the ambassadors in this.
There is seemingly a management attitude, culture, mindset that needs to be improved. Actions are not thought through well for how they will be received and what effect they have. Niantic management also appears to display an attitude that shows disdain for their most active and avid users. It comes across like they want us to go away.
Niantic games are meant to be social experiences. They rely upon strong communities. These most avid users that Niantic treats as if they want them to go away are the leaders of communities. Court those players and treat them well. Recent actions were not how to do that.
None of what Niantic said is comforting nor does it clarify or help to quell the uncertainty and discomfort I'm feeling. And I can only assume I'm not alone here.
The abuse ladder policy (https://niantic.helpshift.com/hc/en/21-wayfarer/faq/4275-wayfarer-abuse-enforcement-ladder-policy/) says nothing about 'advisory/educational emails'.
How are we to know when these emails are 'advisory/educational and not an email that generates 'strikes' that might lead to a punishment?
And if there is a system of 'points' or 'strikes'...Maybe it would be helpful to post the system publicly?
The statement said the effected users would receive a follow up email. Is this referring to just the three names mentioned or does it include any other users who received an incorrect email?
Are we just greasing the squeaky wheels or is this comprehensive?
Finally as regards Niantic commitment to improving these "advisory emails": Until such a time that you can confidently say that anyone logging on to review understands with at least a modest degree of certainty what is and isn't 'correct reviewing' maybe it's best not to send any at all.
If the submission had actually been for the restaurant, I could accept that it would be a "grey area" (though even then Niantic could certainly clarify how they want their criteria applied to restaurants). But the submission wasn't even for the restaurant, it was for their logo. That's what takes it clear out of any "grey area" and into clear rejection territory.
The Kool-Aid is strong here.
No one from Niantic has bothered to write absolutely NOTHING here, nothing at all. The ambassadors had a meeting with Niantic and they exposed these recent issues and Niantic replied to them that they will do better next time, doesn't that ring a bell for anyone?
If anyone from Niantic cared one iotta, they would have promptly posted here that message, showing that they cared. They didn't.
But as they have talked now to the ambassadors, suddendly everything is OK and everyone will be back to their free job, waiting for the next nasty surprise from Niantic and then again we will see the same again, some voices, silence from Niantic, ambassadors will say that it's OK that we must get back to work. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.
I disagreed with the above, for a variety of reasons.
One of the key advantages of having Wayfarer Ambassadors is to do exactly as listed above: the Ambassadors are advocates for the Wayfarer community, and liaisons for communications with Niantic. Their word is good enough for me, and I know that if Niantic doesn't follow through on their promises then the Ambassadors will follow up in their way. Although I would like to see more of the human side of the Niantic Wayfarer team on these fora, I am happy enough with the proxies! Communication filtered through the Ambassador team is still communication of a sort.
I work in process improvement, so I promise you that I'm trying to keep the focus on fixing the whole system, while using real examples to illustrate the impact of the problems.
Annnnnnnd now you've got me itching to do a fishbone diagram on this whole mess.
Communication of a sort?
It doesn't take really any effort to post a message stating that they will look into the issue. This is basic stuff that shouldn't require that anyone proxies the messages.
Niantic has been lying and laughing at all the wayfarers for a very long time and you still think that everything is OK thanks to the ambassadors.
Do you remember how Niantic stated after the 4square dumps that they had learnt the lesson and they would do it better next time? And then they do Courts of the World and India.
How would you describe a Niantic employee that voted yes on the survey about satisfaction with the compensation for all the lost reviews? look at the results here https://community.wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/discussion/49138/were-you-satisfied-with-niantics-compensation-gift Aaron is laughing at everybody that felt that they have been reviewing but won't get a proper reward for their efforts.
Remember: All Niantic employees are paid. Ambassadors and the rest of wayfarers do all of this in their own time. People spend money on gas, they spend their time finding nominations, reviewing, etc... and Niantic won't even reply when they are shocked.
And many of the people have developed a dependency issue, they must keep on reviewing, nominating, no matter how terrible Niantic treats them, they always come back. It's terrible to read these messages and then people like you stating that it's OK because Niantic have said to the ambassadors that they will treat wayfarers better next time.
Keep in mind that these ambassadors have written that they already passed feedback about many of the issues of the new review flow, but Niantic didn't act on them, they kept their plans and schedule.
Look at the actions, not the words.
It's good that things are being worked out, but it shouldn't take the ambassadors getting involved before Niantic acts to correct the situation. This went on for a whole week and Niantic has yet to comment directly on it to the community. It is also not a good look on Niantic's part not to communicate this directly to the community. The ambassadors should not be Niantic's only point of contact or communication with the Wayfarer community, but it seems that Niantic is putting them in that unenviable position.
I mean, look at the last AMA. It really wasn't an AMA at all, but an excuse to publish their roadmap without addressing any questions from the community. That is why I don't have much faith in the current AMA and why I posted my questions publicly and to the form.
Anyone who needs to step away from Wayfarer to take a break is encouraged to do so. Yes, the process works better when more people are engaged. However, no one should be involved with a system or a company that they think is causing them harm, lying to, or laughing at them. Before I became an Ambassador, my favorite phrase was "we need to stop caring more than Niantic does." I still fundamentally believe that. If you believe you have proof that Niantic doesn't care about the Wayfarer program or the people involved with it, please take a break. Those who think there is something to salvage will keep working towards that.
something to salvage
So you're implying that the system is really broken.
Of course now you will try to explain that this isn't what you meant, but your inner self knows the truth and you said it.
@SeaprincessHNB-PGO
I work in process improvement, so I promise you that I'm trying to keep the focus on fixing the whole system, while using real examples to illustrate the impact of the problems.
Annnnnnnd now you've got me itching to do a fishbone diagram on this whole mess.
I learned something new -fishbone diagram- and I like it. It would be interesting to see what you come up with...or open ot up to a forum brainstorming session.
What do you think the effect is?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I'm seeing two effects.
The first effect is user dissatisfaction and confusion.
The other effect is the abuse ladder and educational emails not working as intended.
update: no email as of yet. but i find it interesting that two people posted examples of ai rejecting similar photos of business logos to the one i was told i reviewed incorrectly. at least similar to my eyes. i won't share their screenshots but they may add them on here if they wish. but interesting niantic tells me i rejected incorrectly, but trains their ai to review as i did.
@cyndiepooh-ING as the weekend has begun I would assume that an email will not be sent over the weekend, We felt that the key points that Andis has covered should be conveyed without delay, hence the post. We hope it won’t take too long but the wayfarer team already had a packed schedule to get through on Friday. I fully understand and it is right and proper to expect the email to have the message direct from the Wayfarer Team and that is what you need before considering recommencing reviewing. But in practical terms I think you should shift you expectations of when it will arrive and that will be less stressful.
I'll be here representing those who previously got an educational email but did not get promised an
apologyclarification letter! I'll let you know if I ever receive one. :)