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Golf Courses?

Hi folks. "Golf courses" appear in this document a something to outrightly reject. I'd just like to confirm that this document is valid and up to date:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1rTfW8UJQ24ynoNLm0vHmOFUF5QNqVQieCvVvhj5ItRU/htmlview#

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Answers

  • BaltiCalling-INGBaltiCalling-ING Posts: 294 ✭✭✭✭

    For the longest time, I thought hole 1 could be submitted or a sign to represent the course itself, but to avoid individual holes...I don't know if I am imagining this, or if it actually was written.

  • Hi folks,

    You should reject hole markers (including hole 1) and other locations on a golf course.

    They can be accepted if they are in areas where agents can sit and socialize (like cafes or club areas). If it's for a park (and not for the golf course inside the park), submit the signboard for the park instead.

    Hope that helps!

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 2,717 Ambassador

    I tend to treat golf course submissions as that January 2020 update tells us for "activity-related businesses."

    Activity-related businesses (gyms, dance studios, martial arts studios, etc.)

    • Acceptable: Businesses that have been featured prominently in travel guides, those with historical or cultural significance or are a popular tourist destination. 
    • Not acceptable: Generic businesses with no distinguishing feature or significance or those that are part of a K-12 school.

    @NianticCasey-ING do you think this is appropriate? I've seen people argue that a signpost for a golf course is "by definition" eligible citing the same AMA you're pulling from.

  • Good question @Gendgi-PGO! When it comes to evaluating golf-related cafes and/or clubs, I agree that it should be considered in the same light as these other activity-related businesses. Just because the golf course has one of these gathering spots doesn't mean it automatically is a 5* rating.

  • LadyIslayBC-PGOLadyIslayBC-PGO Posts: 18 ✭✭

    I was asking about the golf course specifically... like a "welcome" sign. Golf courses are similar to the other sporting complexes that are acceptable, but the document that someone sent me as a guide specifically says not to accept golf courses, but I wanted to confirm that because I don't know how up to date the document is.

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 2,717 Ambassador

    That source is a fan complied list of many sources including original Google+ guidelines offered for reviewing. In general, guidance in there applies unless specifically contradicted by future clarifications such as the published criteria below.

    Another great source that is a fan complied list is available at https://ingressama.com/. It's possible but unlikely Casey would confirm the the sources as neither is hosted on a Niantic domain and could be modified at any time, however Casey has shared the Ingress AMA before. The information there is pulled from Ingress "ask me anything" forums that are searchable on the Ingress Community website.

    Both sources refer to the "OPR Candidate Action Guide" that, to my knowledge, was one of the first published guidelines for review. I do not believe it is on any of Niantic's websites, anymore, but an archive of it is available below. Again, unless contradicted by future guidelines it should be followed.

    Not all golf courses are similar to other sporting complexes that are typically open to the general community. Many golf courses are simply for-profit generic businesses with overly manicured landscaping that does not meet criteria for simply existing. However, if the business is notable in ways that make it stand out, such as a tourist destination or having other cultural or historical significance, the signage itself could be eligible. What is specifically ineligible are the individual holes or other things on the field of play.

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've been of the opinion that golf courses are ok, most tend to be old and historic with many people in the community going to them, as well as being exercise (apparently, ì suppose the one time I played I got a hell of a workout climbing through bushes to retrieve my club that I'd thrown further than I'd hit the ball). So yes, I would accept a golf course sign, in the same way that disc golf courses get accepted for their signs

  • FrealafGB-PGOFrealafGB-PGO Posts: 354 ✭✭✭✭

    I don't see why a tennis court would be accepted but not a golf course? So I accept golf courses as something that encourages exercise and are part of sports culture. I wouldn't accept every hole but I'd accept the course, and also any clubhouse for the social gathering side.

  • Faversham71-INGFaversham71-ING Posts: 306 ✭✭✭✭

    @NianticCasey-ING Can we have clarification as to which sports to accept and which fall under activity-related businesses? Should we only be accepting Tennis Courts, Bowls clubs, Football/Soccer pitches if they're open to the general public rather than ran with a membership fee or as a private club? Or is it only certain sports like (golf), gymnastics and martial arts that should be treated as businesses? I'm genuinely confused.

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 2,717 Ambassador

    Tennis courts and open fields aren't business, and Casey has already clarified eligibility.

  • LadyIslayBC-PGOLadyIslayBC-PGO Posts: 18 ✭✭
    edited July 2020

    Gendgi-PGO - the nomination was for a golf course sign.

    A bowling alley would be another for-profit business (although some have pretty cool signage).

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 2,717 Ambassador

    Then review it how you would for the sign itself (is it artistic, etc) or how you would rate the golf course itself. Is there anything distinguishing about it or is it simply a generic business?

  • LadyIslayBC-PGOLadyIslayBC-PGO Posts: 18 ✭✭

    Gendgi-PGO - at the time, I wanted to find out if a golf course was to be accepted the same way other sporting venues were, so I didn't think to search for additional information on the significance of the couse. The sign was not remarkable, and if the course is remarkable, they're not advertising it on their sign, so I suspect it may not be. Next time, though, I'll know what to look for.

  • Faversham71-INGFaversham71-ING Posts: 306 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2020

    Can you point me to where Casey has clarified which sports can be treated as businesses and which shouldn't? I'm genuinely confused as to where the line is drawn. What's the criteria we should follow? Locally a lot of the Tennis Clubs are private membership in the same way as Golf Courses, why is one a business and one a sport? I've always treated Bowling Greens as eligible as sports facilities, despite generally being for members only, am I wrong? What about a Badminton or Squash clubs vs Fencing or Judo clubs. I don't think I understand what the guidance is.

    Post edited by Faversham71-ING on
  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 2,717 Ambassador

    No, but I can post where Casey has said tennis courts are eligible:

    And the guidelines allow for park features that typically include sports fields.

    Potentially Confusing Nominations

    Additional Examples and Guidelines

    Athletic fields - Eligible, as long as they are publicly accessible. If the fields are marked by signs, submit the signs as Wayspots. Also, ensure that the Wayspot appears to be at least 40 meters away from a private residence.

    I would still consider the bowling greens to typically be eligible. The business, such as a tennis club or golf course, itself may not always be eligible unless it stands out for other reasons (clubhouse, featured prominently, once trained in by major athletes), but the courts inside of it may be.

  • Faversham71-INGFaversham71-ING Posts: 306 ✭✭✭✭

    Thanks - so if it's an outdoor sports field it's generally okay but not an indoor sports facility and it's the field itself (which could be proxied by a sign) but not the business. I'm not quite sure why a golf course sign can't act as a proxy for the course. I assume a park pitch and putt course would be okay though?

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As I said, I would accept the sign of golf courses, same as disc golf courses, as a proxy for the course. Atbthe end of the day, golf is a sport, so I dont see why the whole course couldn't be represented. The club house I would submit separate as it's a gathering place and usually a bar

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 2,717 Ambassador

    Would you accept a community pool or a martial arts training facility? At the end of the day, both are typically considered "sports," but have criteria supporting that they are not considered inherently eligible.

    That's not saying I don't accept "golf course" nominations, just that I'm going to hold it to the standard used for "activity-related businesses." And frankly I consider it a low bar to pass those are they typically promote a high level of social engagement.

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 2,717 Ambassador

    I would typically consider park pitches and putt putt courses eligible, assuming pin location at an area off of the general field of play.

    I don't think I fully understand the first part of your statement; just that park fields tend to be much more acceptable with less caveats whereas ones associated with businesses tend to require more to support them being distinguished from a generic business. A golf course sign could be proxy for the course, considering it is not on the actual greens and off the "field of play," but it could still be susceptible to the "generic business" rejection.

  • LadyIslayBC-PGOLadyIslayBC-PGO Posts: 18 ✭✭

    I believe that this adequately answers this question (from the January 2020 clarifications):

    Activity-related businesses (gyms, dance studios, martial arts studios, etc.)

    • Acceptable: Businesses that have been featured prominently in travel guides, those with historical or cultural significance or are a popular tourist destination. 
    • Not acceptable: Generic businesses with no distinguishing feature or significance or those that are part of a K-12 school.

    The majority of golf courses are private businesses.

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Martial arts one I wouldnr be opposed to tbh, so long as it wasnt a children's one, I've not seen anything for or against them. Pools though are outright rejects, that's the guidance on that, theres no specific guidance rejecting a sign forna gold course if the sign represents the entire golf course

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 2,717 Ambassador

    Isn't there, though?

    Activity-related businesses (gyms, dance studios, martial arts studios, etc.)

    • Acceptable: Businesses that have been featured prominently in travel guides, those with historical or cultural significance or are a popular tourist destination. 
    • Not acceptable: Generic businesses with no distinguishing feature or significance or those that are part of a K-12 school.

    Martial arts are listed up there. It wouldn't be eligible simply for existing, there would need to be some sort of cultural or historical or other significance attached to it. As LadyIslayBC-PGO just posted above, most golf courses are private/generic businesses and, as an activity related business, would need something helping them stand out.

  • Gazzas89-PGOGazzas89-PGO Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe it depends on part of the world, but from where I am, all the golf courses round me are famous ones. And either way, if we are going to go down the route if all sorts that require money to do, why is mini golf allowed? Virtually every mini golf in existence is a pay to use one, so why are they acceptable but actual golf courses, which will have history behind them, not allowed? I would say driving ranges are questionable, but at the same time they should also fall under the same level as mini golf. In fact, why are private bowling greens and their houses allowed? I asked that a couple of weeke back and told they were allowed no problem, yet if we are to treat any sport that requires money to pay, then shy are those kinds if bowling greens allowed? Theres 5 aside pitches, they're allowed too even when they are money to pay businesses. Theres more examples we could go with, yet for some reason we are now saying to treat golf differently from these, wheres the logic?

  • grsmhiker-INGgrsmhiker-ING Posts: 156 ✭✭✭

    Personally I tend to rate mini golf somewhere in the middle - at least the actual business, that is. Unlike a driving range, they could be considered a tourist attraction or somewhere you'd take a friend visiting from out of town. Now, many of them (where I live) often have unique and creative decor like fountains, sculptures, fiberglass dinosaurs, giant windmills, etc, which I'd consider to be better nominations than the place itself.

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 2,717 Ambassador

    Yea, this. Most (not all) mini put put golf type ranges are businesses, true, but tend to be more touristy/vacation/social gathering location and tend to have "semi" unique artwork or themes that make it interesting.

    I don't think it's a "part of the world thing," but it could be. In my area, golf courses are a dime a dozen because everyone golfs casually, and it isn't uncommon to have a golf course in a subdivision and housing placed immediately around it. Some of these are city/parks ran, some are more HOA or membership sponsored, and some are literally just a business where you go and pay $x to play a round of golf. If there were things that made the course stand out aside from simply existing, I'd have no issue accepting, but most just don't. There's a whole criteria for "activity-related businesses" but no specific criteria (outside of the unpublished CAG & AMA) on golf courses.

    Sure, something like the a course that hosts competitions or is otherwise featured would (in my opinion) make a great Wayspot.

  • Faversham71-INGFaversham71-ING Posts: 306 ✭✭✭✭

    I'm still not sure why golf courses aren't treated as 'athletic fields' in the same way tennis courts and football pitches are, neither are exactly fit 'athletic field'. There seems to be an assumption that golf is an activity rather than a true sport.

  • BaltiCalling-INGBaltiCalling-ING Posts: 294 ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, but regardless of its being an athletic endeavor, it's clearly a strong social endeavor. I think courses should be valid, provided that not every hole is a portal, and that the portal location is not positioned as to interfere with play (similar to guidance on baseball field guidance)

  • Gendgi-PGOGendgi-PGO Posts: 2,717 Ambassador

    Because a great number (not all, maybe not most, but a "great number") of golf courses are simply businesses. An indoor/outdoor tennis club would likely fall under the same rejection. Would you accept the tennis court, basketball court, and racquetball court located inside a single athletic club or gym?

  • Sugarstarzkill-PGOSugarstarzkill-PGO Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I did get a POI for my local golf course accepted, but it also had a historic appeal to it (been there for over 100 years, land was donated by one of the town's founders, etc., etc). There also are not golf courses all over the place here.


    It sounds like the main distinction (from other sports related nominations) is that you have to pay to use it (usually?). But on the other hand, our local community center costs money to join too, but community centers are usually easy approvals.


    I'm not disagreeing that we are supposed to rate them as businesses, that seems to be what they fall under. It's just one of those things that seems like it is slightly inconsistent with other guidance. But I guess it really depends on each individual golf course.

  • 0X00FF00-ING0X00FF00-ING Posts: 690 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A golf course should be accepted, as a place to engage in socialized physical activity. So long as you’re submitting something representative like its sign, and not some point on the grounds. That the place may be a business, or that the location may be inaccessible to a non-paying general public is not germane.

    Now substitute “bowling alley” for “golf course”. Or “baseball diamond”. Or “paintball field”. Or “tennis court”. Or “cricket pitch”. Or “hockey rink”.

    They’re ALL places to engage in socialized physical activity, and ought to be accepted.

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