Swimming Pools and other ineligible waypoints are are still being nominated and accepted despite Nia
grendelwulf-ING Posts: 299 ✭✭✭✭
Despite Niantic's specific instructions not to. Players will continue to go against Niantic's instructions and follow their own rules unless invalid portals start being deleted when they are reported. Please stop awarding people who deliberately go against the rules.
Niantic has a serious education and training problem around Wayfarer. Their guidelines are unclear, ambiguous, contradictory, and spread over probably a couple dozen different documents. They change regularly, but Niantic doesn't provide a concise change log. If you want to keep up with what's happening you have to wend your way through several formal documents plus a big piles of AMAs, and you have to sequence and reconcile all of the statements that Niantic has made over time.
Basically, you need a Wayfarer Law Degree to understand all of the rules. Very few people are going to make that kind of effort, so they make their decisions based on what they see in the games now or what "feels" right.
This would be incredibly easy to fix. They chose not to.
I understand they're working on it.
Unless you read these forums in detail, or very recently passed the test which maybe gives this instruction, you're never going to know that public swimming pools are ineligible. I have read every topic on this in full and I still don't get it. So why would anyone who isn't as involved know this? Every other public sports venue tends to be eligible, so people wouldn't think to check if a swimming pool has suddenly become ineligible!
Maybe if they started removing them when they are reported as invalid they would stop submitting them? Also how do you portal scan a swimming pool?
I wasn't aware that we were supposed to be reporting swimming pools as invalid. I thought we were just supposed to reject any new ones when reviewing? Honestly I do not want to remove the swimming pool waypoints in my town. There is nothing wrong with them and they pre date the rule change!
There are a lot of waypoints in general that would not be eligible if submitted today, but have been in the games since launch. It would be a massive shame to lose them now. Our town even has 1 location with 2 waypoints quite close together, which have been there since launch. I'm sure everyone would say abuse, but it's always been like that. I also know a town with a park absolutely full of waypoints of memorial plaques and benches. Again, they have been there since launch. I don't think they should be removed, just we wouldn't accept more like them.
why would i reject a swimming pool? i would reject it, if it is a private swimming pool.
Here in Germany we have Sporting Grounds and of course, Swimming Pools are the same just in Water.
I do not know how that is in the US, but i think it wont be any different? maybe Europe is different here?
The US has a lot if community pools open to the public. For very unclear reasons, Niantic has deemed most pools ineligible. Their example of an eligible pool is one where an Olympic athlete trained. The latest AMA asked them to clarify WHY community pools are now mostly not eligible. But they didn't really answer the "why" portion.
as noone here did read that, people still vote like they see it. i do not understand why you would reject a swimming pool in germany.
The Community has spoken.
@rodensteiner-ING I would reject a swimming pool because of the January 2020 clarifications:
You can also take the September AMA response into consideration:
While the OP is complaining about pools being accepted, I'm curious what examples they have seen.
It's also worth noting that the first release of Wayfarer guidelines actually specifically stated apartment pools were acceptable.
Our Aquatic Centers indeed always have more than just a Swimmingpool.
We do have fitness machines, all sorts of playground for kids, places to eat.
I Germany you would seldom find any Swimming Pool that is JUST a swimming pool.
So, all are eligible as long as they have ONE more purpose than just swimming.
I try to save my skips for swimming pools. They're more often accepted, despite the criteria clarifications. I don't wanna get an easy disagreement.
I'm really struggling to think what issue with pools is all of a sudden. It's not like we can only submit playgrounds if Carl Lewis once jumped into the sandpit there.
Are they worried about kids who can't swim falling in? Dropping their phones in?
If they had either of these worries, they would not have included an exception, they simply all would be ineligible.
There is the issue with swimming pools for fun that are not year round. That is enough to disqualify. If the pool is heated in the winter, I do not have a good guess.
No one really understands why the rules changed. That's why weve asked repeatedly, yet they keep side stepping it (the September 2020 AMA is the most recent, but the rule change was a year ago I believe).
In the US, we also tend to have community centers that are much more than just pools. The one near me has an indoor: pool, basketball court, walking /running track, weights, cardio equipment, rooms you can rent for birthdays or events, etc. Thankfully, it's easy to submit the entire community center and not the pool itself.
I don't believe the US is all that different from Germany in this regard. We do also have a public outdoor pool that's only open in the summer. I don't think the seasonal thing is what causes an issue here @OvertimeWalker-PGO . We still accept outdoor basketball courts, yet in my part of the world they can't be used half of the year (snow).
-Safety issues- but in that case, I would think they'd ban ALL pools.
- Others have wondered if it's in poor taste to have a cell phone out with people in bathing suits (concerns about perverts taking photos of kids/anyone). But that doesn't make sense either- things like splash pads in parks are allowed, as are POIs in water parks. Etc.
- Technically, a pool is just a space in the ground filled with water. It's certainly man made, but in thinking about how we have to tie our nomination to a physical man made object.. the water doesn't work. You could use the ladder or a sign though.
TL;DR- lots of speculation, but none of our guesses about why they are mostly ineligible now seem to hold water (pun intended). The latest clarification appears to allow more pools than before though. Public pools often encourage exercise AND are community gathering areas. So it is frustrating that Niantic has not explained their reasoning when it seems like this conflicts with the overall guidelines.
In situations like this, Occam's Razor suggests that we look for the fingerprints of corporate lawyers.
I'm seeing apartment and condo complex pools still going live. Pools being included as eligible when wayfarer laumched was clearly a mistake since prior to that in opr they were clearly called out as ineligible and the statement they were eligible was removed from the wayfarer site about two weeks after it was put up. But by then the damage had been done.
It's almost certainly the lawyers. No one wants to look gross photographing or portal scanning a pool where people expected some type of privacy.
Where do you live that you see them still going live with any regular pattern? My entire region passed one apartment pool and that was during the brief window where they were allowed.
They were not "clearly called out as ineligible" in opr. There was one statement where somebody complained about a pool being rejected. Mr. Krug shared that NiaOps agreed with a particular rejection and offered that an apartment complex pool is not in the "exercise equipment in a park" category that is typically eligible, and left it open that they could be eligible if it had cultural or historical significance. Lack of clarity even then allowed people to simply argue that they easily pass cultural significance as a community gathering location.
If it were the lawyers, they would have left it all at pools being ineligible to leave it simple and clear cut and not allow mental gymnastics and any loophole arguments.
theres mostly no need here in germany to make a photo of semi-nude people at the swimmingpool.
Our Swimming-Locations are mostly a beauty on the outside.
i guess the whole kerfuffle just came to be, as there were swimming pools in private residential areas that became wayspots. i do not think that every swimming pool in Los Angeles needs to be a wayspot.
Was looking to see if still good or not, and saw this thread. St Louis MO Metro area, still getting a ton of new pool submissions (mostly for apartment complexes) and they are still going live, so someone is still voting for them. Niantic doesn't seem to do have any oversight really.
POI DB is turning into a sign DB for the most part anyway. Soo many signs...
If they are new submissions, it could be that there is currently no reason to believe swimming pools are ineligible. In fact, swimming pools meet several Eligibility Criteria without meeting any Rejection Criteria.
I get why private pools are not accepted, but I don't get why they ssid public pools were not. Most people in my area are fine with them being waypoints. But please do not ask me to scan them.
Like others have mentioned here, it is 100% the lawyers - but not for the photos
pools fall into the Attractive Nuisance Doctrine in the US and if anyone is injured/dies the owner of the attractive nuisance is liable. here, niantic’s AR pin (their asset and property) is superimposed on/near the pool WITHOUT the permission/knowledge of the owner (be it the city/county, homeowners association, or apartment complex) would make Niantic liable for the ****/injury.
Thats why they were so quick to remove it from the website.
now, why they were readded in the amas , I would have to guess that it’s because, as we all know, niantic is So aMazing aT cOmMunicting. Regardless, I would be okay with the famous Olympic pools because those usually have a lifeguard on duty and security cameras. The local apartment/community pools most often don’t.
Honestly, @NianticCasey-ING should have had a serious talk with Niantic lawyers before amending the criteria again. I do not want the company to enter another giant lawsuit. Especially over something as obvious as an attractive nuisance pool case that even baby 1st year, 1st semester law students could point out
I have taken my phone to amusement parks that include water parks. Granted, the slides are not exactly pools since the water is continuously moving. What is your opinion on water parks? Include just water parks and water parks at an amusement park separately. I doubt many if any have had any Olympic swimmers training there. I know of some that are just seasonal water parks that have at least one Wayspot.
@1DeletedAccount-PGO This thread was made back in October prior to the complete revamp of Niantic's wayspot criteria. I would highly recommend reading the updated criteria instead of looking for advice in older threads, as much of it is invalid now. Most reviewers now seem to agree that pools now meet the guidelines under the categories of "a great place to be social" and "a great place to exercise". A water park most likely also meets those requirements as well as another category, "a great place to explore". If you are not familiar with the new guidelines I would suggest reading them here: https://wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/criteria