Punishment vs. reinforcement and one curious case of Wayfarer abuse

13

Comments

  • Talbot17-INGTalbot17-ING Posts: 1 ✭✭


    A quick suggestion 

    Reading through this sequence really illustrate a few of the game and players main characteristics 

    For example - Social and behavioral attributes, rules and rules interpretations – and all of their derivatives. 

    From far away and without digging into the well-crafted tales and counter stories it sure looks like a case of difference of opinions goes wild. 

    A few takeaways 

    1. The portal voting system is not perfect yet it is working. Common sense deployment is highly recommended and the system democratic nature is imperative and should be trusted.  

    2. Other means to supervise the voting system (like this portal) are making it even more robust. 

    3. Players abuse is part of it and that includes occasional misguided portal submissions as well as weaponizing this portal.  


    Enjoy the game - Your war is boring, grow up.

    Make sure your portals submission are higher quality. Save us from these posts and avoid dragging us and Niantic to be part of this mud war. The elaborated, convoluted, covert and manipulative post purpose is probably more disgusting than many questionable portal submissions.

  • Jtronmoore-PGOJtronmoore-PGO Posts: 1,092 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yeah your thoughts pretty much sum up mine on this whole thread. Basically OP. Is showing the shortcomings us the voting system in there area, while the other claims that the OP is being abusive and harassing where its quite clear they are not lol. Basically a big he said she said but OP provides proof but the other does not and then tries to show an abusive nomination which clearly isnt and is being targetted for calling out the people abusing the system imo

  • WandHerring-PGOWandHerring-PGO Posts: 126 ✭✭✭✭

    Alright I said I was gone but seeing how this post blew up I had to read it out of morbid curiosity.

    These two comments right here are solid evidence you're indeed cheating. First of all, the move is probably perfectly understandable since the initial location was in the middle of the road. So until you provide evidence that the POI is actually on the road, with pedestrian access, it's fair to assume the pin was (mis)placed there to circumvent the spacing algorithm. Second, you're flat out telling us a nomination which shouldn't be in the game by your community standards still managed to easily get accept without a hitch, again supporting OP's claim you're applying much lower standards than the official guidelines. I also note that you didn't take credit for reporting this POI, meaning there's the possibility you're only admitting to the mistake because you've realized you can't defend the undefendable.

    If I were you all, I would abandon this post because the more you talk, the more evidences you give away that OP is right about you folk and you've indeed organized yourselves to circumvent Wayfarer quality and accuracy checks.

  • Greetings

    Niantic should be aware that you and some of the others who stands behind the post here may be a friends of OP and work together to assiste OP to harm others. there has been a consistent disregard for facts and for violating a number of Niantic laws by OP (such as responding from couple of fictitious users).

    You can't point out that a user, any user, uses cheating- without having any proof. To say such harsh things without any proof - it is harassment and something that is forbidden by Niantic laws. Also, you should never tell any user to "abandon this post"- you have no right to do so, you are not the moderator of this forum- and any user have the equal rights to speak and write like you do !

  • GiladY-PGOGiladY-PGO Posts: 5 ✭✭

    Hello again,

    I understand your point of view. Most of you are top commenters, here for a while, and then out of the blue, this group of people starting fire comments here. Yeah, it looks weird, and you probably haven't read all that we wrote (well, most of you), and I can't blame you for it. You probably know OP for a while, and so far, you have heard one side.


    Just to be clear, I never met OP. I don't know OP (only by reputation), but I do know OP is not from my city. And this is the problem. Although OP is not part of my community, OP affects it repeatedly by reporting here on this platform. What OP did is reporting without never being there or having hard evidence of poor POI. And we can agree that it might be hard to get evidences when one is reporting on Jerusalem while living around the center of the country (70km away).


    So two points:

    1.      Community - Neither of you would want me to report about what happens in your neighborhood, especially since I have never been there and that I am not a part of your local community. It doesn't matter if my claims are valid or not, I would be an outsider, and I should not be able to even report on it or even able to do it. Think about it, it will open a window for Munich's players to report on POI in Berlin or NYC to report on LA. Neither of us will want it.

    2.      Evidence - I know that it is something that important to you (and me). I am not talking specifically about the examples presented at the beginning of this post, obviously, we can discuss about these for hours. I believe we can all agree that google street view and google maps are not enough in most cases. And yet, it has been the primary tool for presenting a case here. Anyway, At the moment, I can't get more proof since Israel is in lockdown.

    Regarding the gym located at 32.095356832898105, 34.786098775667895

    Either I didn't correctly explain what happened, or you haven't read the full thread. So let me sum it up for you. It was relocated twice. It has been originally located on the road but was accessible. Then it has been moved into the park away from the neighborhood. The movement caused it to become a stop and not a gym anymore. This relocation could not benefit anyone as a "home" gym. So after it became a stop, it has been moved (the second time) to the right location you can see now. It was a deliberate action to make this gym disappear.


    Another example is a gym not far from there that was there since day 1 of the game and has been removed. One day not so long ago, the same method accrues to it, and it disappeared.

    Location: 32.096065779485386, 34.790395674494526

    These are just two examples of abuse in our community by outsiders. Yes, I am sure we do not do it. It happened on the same days that other POI has been removed. I wish I could give you a full list of what was deleted, but I am not mapping daily all the stops around me (is anyone doing something like that?). Also, I am not trying to recover what is lost, we can do it independently—just trying to present my side.


    Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying everything is perfect on our side. A small percentage of the POI in the area was poor (you can see in the previous photo that one was located on the river, and after being deleted, it never came back). But we guided the nominators on how to nominate it right (A side note: we even created videos and guides in Hebrew to help pass the language barrier). I mean, think about it, are all your first nominations are in the same standard you will nominate now? I believe it has improved significantly.

    We are improving and developing the area by discussion and explanations and support. After other communities nationwide saw what we did, we started to guide them and help them to improve small towns and cities. After all, it is just a game for us all to enjoy and have fun without harming anyone.


    OP, I am inviting you to reach out to me, and let's talk privately to end whatever dispute you have with our community. I am sure we can find a way through a direct dialog.

  • KwyjiboHan-PGOKwyjiboHan-PGO Posts: 46 ✭✭

    Your community point is wrong. I would be happy if you reported the garbage portals in London because the local community have integrity that can withstand an external audit.

  • korrina2014-PGOkorrina2014-PGO Posts: 24 ✭✭

    I'm hoping that Niantic will lock up this thread soon, as it seems that OP is part of a group that wants to harm others by false claims and an exhausting war has been created here and not related to the original post (like other posts of OP in the past).

  • WandHerring-PGOWandHerring-PGO Posts: 126 ✭✭✭✭

    Alright that's outright hilarious. It doesn't take long to check my post history to realize I'm living 4000km away from Israel. I have no personal stake in your dispute, I just find it good popcorn read. Accusing me of being either a sock puppet account or, ironically considering you came here with half a dozen friends, to collude with OP is priceless.

    I'm not accusing without proof, I am basing my assessments on screenshots the other user provided; I even laid down how you could easily handwave them away: just show us that the POI you're accusing OP of maliciously move is indeed in the middle of the road with pedestrian access, otherwise it's fair to assume that it was put there not based on accuracy, but to escape Wayfarer's spacing algorithm; the fact moving the pin a few meters back on the sidewalk seem to confirm that too.

    Also, I never ordered you to leave, simply stated that, for me, it would be in your best interest to do so because you're giving evidence against yourselves, which is merely my opinion I have the right to voice. I never pretended to have any formal authority and you can completely disregard it if you want.

    For your two points:

    1. The actual localization of the whistleblower doesn't matter. I've reported abuse halfway across my country based on evidence I gathered through Wayfarer (got to review a POI with a fake photosphere, dug around and saw multiples POIs nearby got accepted with a similar tactic, and even found fake photospheres posted by the same Google User at position without a wayspot, probably as groundwork for upcoming abuse). Niantic wants that external look to avoid collusion within the majority of members in a local community, hence the 300km reviewing radius.
    2. No we don't agree on that point. Google Maps and Street View aren't infallible, but they do constitute one of the strongest evidence someone can provide here, shy of going to designed coordinate with a GPS tracker and a camera to record the POI themselves. It may happen that a POI doesn't appear on Google because of outdated, but contextual clues are often enough to assess whether or not it is likely to exist as entire neighborhoods rarely get bulldozed and rebuilt in a few years.

    Regarding the relocation.

    These explanation are clearer, thank you. It still doesn't explain why the gym was put on the road instead of on the sidewalk in the first place.

    Have you considered that, instead of accusing OP of wanting to mess with you, it may have been an attempt at creating a cluster of misplaced POIs by a group of local players unknown to you? Getting a fake location edit approved requires a certain amount of resources to pass up the new location as more credible than the initial one. Another partial is that some deletion were done by Niantic after OP brought up to Niantic's attention -proof in hand- that there were a high number of poor nomination getting accepted in your area and they did a clean up. OP accurately pointed out that some funky is happening in your city, that doesn't mean they're to blame for every setback your community faces.

    I'm sure you're doing great things for your local community, that's not the issue; neither is the fact that you may have a few younger players among your ranks that submit bad things. What's really, really suspicious is that this coal is somehow manage to get into the game. This is not how Wayfarer usually works -most people face the opposite issue, where their eligible nominations get rejected for bad reasons- and is often a telltale evidence local groups are messing with the review process. The more you all engage with this topic, the more it appears that, indeed, while you have a tight-knit community that probably helping its member in amazing ways, you're also colluding to derail the normal review process:

    • You can pin-point every bad submission to specific PoGo players.
    • You're scapegoating OP for everything going wrong with your plans, meaning you think that, outside of their intervention, you have complete control of the nomination and review process in the region.
    • You're always talking about how bad nominations get submitted, but never how they get approved, which is the point most people are challenging you upon in this discussion.
    • You're vehemently opposed to outside scrutiny.

    From the guy who was boasting about getting 20 times more approved POIs that it would have been possible for them to merely submit considering the time frame to the mounting evidences provided by OP through their different posts, it's pretty obvious you're not playing by Niantic's rules.

  • And again you make wrong assumptions and ignore all the evidences against OP.

    This is why couple of users already said that it is very suspicious for of any kind of collaboration. You do not have to live in Israel to work with OP behind the scenes, and already some users here wondered why you try so hard to defend OP and ignore the allegations against it (such as using a number of fictitious users).

    You keep telling those stories about player groups (?) that affect submissions (?), But like OP you have no proof of that. Once you have claims without any proof or backup to it- you may offending an entire community and makes other users wonder what are you true intentions or collaborations with OP. Each request in the wayfarer system faces dozens if not hundreds of voters - and no one has the power to influence a request alone.

    Raising allegations of bias, forgeries, quality of requests, etc- in a public forum without any proof (just a hypothesis) - is a wrong thing to do and you are acting against the laws of Niantic by doing so. Please stop offending other players, and keep a productive and unbiased dialogue without false assumptions.


    Thanks

  • Ultimo6419-PGOUltimo6419-PGO Posts: 88 ✭✭✭

    Maybe it helps for a better understanding to focus on the game mechanism. The conflict is in the game layout, it is not between good and bad people.

    The great experience in PoGo is to meet other players, play together, form friendships. To create this experience, playing needs to be concentrated to areas where coming together will happen in a most pleasant way. If playing was equally possible everywhere, the coming together would deteriorate. Therefore it is essential for the game to be connected with selected points of interest.

    We need the people nominating points of interest to create the areas that make playing great.

    And we need those people who watch that the game is not destroyed by spreading portals/stops on every uninteresting corner.

    The way PoGo is designed, playing experience is especially fun if stops are equally distant close together. There is a harmonic rhythm of spinning and catching and this rhythm is interrupted if stops are felt missing.

    Now to the point where the game is in danger of destroying itself. Nominators are trying to restore this "rhythm" by inserting stops where they are felt to be useful even if there is no point of interest exactly there. Maybe perfecting the game experience at this local area but at the same time encouraging followers to create fake stops everywhere. But if you can play everywhere, people will play everywhere, the coming together stops and the game will become boring.

    Maybe balance is better than a perfect solution?

    For me, this is not the same as abusive behavior. Abuse has other motives, to gain a personal benefit (e.g. home portals) or to damage others (e.g. reject nominations of players who do not join the 20 Dollar per week raid group).

  • WandHerring-PGOWandHerring-PGO Posts: 126 ✭✭✭✭

    I do have proof of that, you've all come up here to talk against OP and made clear you're part of the same, much larger community of players. Are you trying to deny that now? As for the accusation of collusion, I keep making my assessment on the circumstantial evidence both OP and your group gave me, like the others users did. I spent most of my messages laying down the reasons why I think there's ongoing organized abuse there.

    You're right, nominations are reviewed by several dozens people, so how would you explain that, considering your massive effort to inform your community (e.g. the tutorial videos you made), multiple generic bicycle paths get approved if not for some form of organized manipulation? And why for every obviously bad POI that got approved someone pointed out, your reply has been "Oh we found out who submitted it, they won't do it again." and not the more logical "We don't know how it got there, we reported it as soon as we saw it."?

    I never had contact with OP behind the scenes, and my only only defence in their favor was to raise the possibility they're might not be responsible for the malicious location edits you're attributed them (without proof, by your own admission). I'm merely pointing out the inconsistencies in your stories and putting them together. Things don't add up, and the more explanation we get, the little sense it would make for your version to be entirely truthful. It's unfortunate that this conclusion is offending you, but people have been repeatedly asking you folks to produce evidence to discredit those allegations, and none was provided so far.

    Also, I don't think you're in any position to request me to keep the dialogue productive and unbiased when it's you bunch who came here and derail the topic in the first place. I would like to invite you review your latest messages and uphold yourself to the standards you're expecting from others (for instance, policing others on what they can and can't post on this forum).

  • SiIverLyra-PGOSiIverLyra-PGO Posts: 346 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Alright, a lot of allegations were thrown around I will not be addressing them at once (mostly because they're outright lies and not worth the time and effort). All in all - and as others have noted before me - I think the comments here talk for themselves.

    However, if anyone does have any questions to me about specific details, I will happily answer to the best of my ability. I have nothing to hide. And if any of my words won't be clear enough, then I will happily clarify.

    @GiladY-PGO - I have had 2 or 3 "negotiations" attempts with the Yarkon abuse group so far. All of them were quite vicious and quickly reached dead ends. However, if you think you have something different to bring to the table, or if you just want to hear my side of things, then I'll happily talk with you over Whatsapp. There's probably someone in the community that can get you my number.

  • Contrary to the wrong things you wrote here (again), I am an independent player that is not related to any other players besides my family ("you bunch who came here and derail the topic in the first place"- this sentence is completely wrong and offensive) . I speak on behalf of all the community in Israel- who is aware of OP actions in the past (not like you. or?) and know all of its personal vendetta against players and entire regions in Israel (like Jerusalem, as i have mentioned here before).

    Therefore, by associating me with specific cases or tell stories about some voting systems that we take part in - you offend me and many other players at Israel community. and again, you are ignoring any allegations against OP- that is why all of your actions makes it very suspicious that you are biased in OP favor for these or other reasons.

    I hope the moderators of this forums will act against any unproven accusations that come up by OP or you, and will stop this farce / witch-hunt of some users here against others without having any other proof for their claims.

  • korrina2014-PGOkorrina2014-PGO Posts: 24 ✭✭
    edited December 2020

    Please refer to the accusations that you are acting to remove wayspots of other communities without actually being there, for opening a fake user to assist other players getting deleted wayspots back (and Niantic can check for it in their systems), why you act incessantly only against certain areas and not yours (for example removing the kindergarten wayspot someone has brought here).

    We want to hear your side on this matters.

  • SiIverLyra-PGOSiIverLyra-PGO Posts: 346 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was referring to people from outside of Israel, to be honest, since the Israeli users that have commented here so far seem to have their opinion on me cemented already.

    I mean, I find it curious that you suddenly want to hear my side, seeing as you already quite confidently stated that I have a personal "vendetta" against the entire local community, and that I'm on a "crusade" to hurt other players, to quote your exact words.

    I will not ignore you. But I will answer succinctly.

    1. Unlike what some are happy to imply, I don't spend my days on the Intel map looking for stops to report. When, during the review process, I encounter nominations that I suspect might be false or abusive, I take the time to investigate them. If I find them abusive, I report them.
    2. The allegations that I have something against several Israeli communities or the Israeli community as a whole are ridiculous. The only players I currently have a problem with are a couple of users from the Yarkon area who, among other things, have used my real name to pretend to be me on these forums, as some users might remember (Casey in particular, who was the one to lock that thread). Sadly due to the mass deletion of posts earlier this month, that discussion is gone. But I still have screencaps if you want more proof.
    3. In very specific cases - two, in fact, the Yarkon/Bavli area and the Har Homa area - I found that after months, the abusive wayspots not only still exist, but more are being actively added. That is why I've felt that I have to use the last resource I have - these forums.
    4. As for the accusation that I've opened a fake account, I gladly encourage Niantic to check that - the IP, the email, whatever - because that's not me. Using fake accounts is bellow me, I'm afraid. But it IS interesting that this idea keeps being brought up here, though. It's a peculiar concept to just throw out there. Especially when you notice that several accounts that have commented here have joined the forum after my original post was created, and have commented only or mainly on this thread.
    5. As I said, I don't go around looking for abusive wayspots to report. When I stumble on them, I report them. If you find any abusive wayspots that you think shouldn't be in Niantic's systems, then by all means I encourage you to report them. But I'm afraid I won't be going around doing your or anyone else's biddings in this matter. It's hard work, and if it's important to you, you're very welcome to do it yourself.
  • rodensteiner-INGrodensteiner-ING Posts: 500 ✭✭✭✭

    @NianticCasey-ING could we please take this somewhere else?

  • korrina2014-PGOkorrina2014-PGO Posts: 24 ✭✭

    It may seem very strange to respond only to players outside of Israel (btw if you are right with your claims- you don't need to answer only certain players from certain regions- The truth is always the same. And if your problem is only with one or two areas in Israel like you have mentioned- what is the problem to respond to other Israelis?) But it is nice from you to answer. There are still some question marks regarding your last comment-


    1. Regarding Har Homa / Jerusalim issue, and after reading the original post, you have reported that they have fakes without you being there physically and without having any updated Google View to rely on. It is ok to raise question marks and ask Niantic to look into this matter, but- you have declared that there are a lot of fakes without physically checking it. IMO this is very problematic and is forbidden by Niantic. After all, you can't judge them for having fakes without having 100% proves for this claim (and you didn't sent there any)


    2. You consistently call regions or wayspots as "abusive" - ​​this is a very harsh word to use. Each area I guess consists of a lot of wayspots or submissions by many players, and for you to write in this forums that an entire area is abusive (when your strongest proof is a bike path that meets the Niantic criteria perhaps at the low standard as someone mentioned here) - this is a wrong thing to do and unfair for all the players and wayspots in the certain region. As an Israeli, I'm sure you know it's wrong to include an entire group or area for some issue in any case.


    3. You may speculate about users who have wrote things on this post- and Niantic can also check for this matter. Do you deny any connection to the post regarding restoration of waystops in the Gan Meir area? you didn't wrote the message, and maybe some other player used your message to publish it ?


    4. Regarding the abusive wayspots in your region. I'm sure that after all this months or even years playing this game you know your area better than anyone. how come that after so much time you did you not report any single abusive wayspot in your city? And if so, accept my apologies and It will be great if you show us any wayspot that you have reported and got removed in your region. After all, dozens of other wayspots have been "stumbled " and got removed by your actions, I guess you found at least one bad wayspot in your city in this whole process?


    Thank you for your clarifications .

  • SiIverLyra-PGOSiIverLyra-PGO Posts: 346 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was thinking about it, and I agree with you. This thread is way off topic in its current form. I won't be continuing the discussion about my personal Wayfarer ethics - it seems that nobody outside of my local community cares about it, and those in my community can easily contact me IRL and question me about whatever they like.

    If anyone else has got questions that are not on such a personal, off topic level, then I'll still gladly answer.

    ...It's very useful for some people, of course. Derail a thread about abuse beyond recognition, get it locked, abuse can continue.

  • SocialOutlaw-PGOSocialOutlaw-PGO Posts: 35 ✭✭

    Man are we still doing this? How is this thread still active......


    That screenshot is pretty clear. That gym was in the road. It wasn't supposed to be there. It very clear that gym was placed wrong. If putting it where it actually belongs makes it a stop instead then that's what it was supposed to be?


    I thought I already stated I wasn't from that area. I offered to let you check the stops in my hometown. I'll even let you check the quality of my noms with a screenshot.

    What about you. I believe you just ignored me when I asked for you to post your nom screen shots. Let me see the cords on them. Show me the maps of where they are. Take a picture.

    See I had to pick a side right now I'd have to go with the OP. Something does seem up, the group attack against him, the use of plural pronouns, the refusal to show any kinda proof that shows malicious intent. Why all the misdirection?

  • korrina2014-PGOkorrina2014-PGO Posts: 24 ✭✭

    You said you were willing to answer questions, but as soon as the difficult questions came up you are asking to lock the thread. Calling an entire community / region or some people "abusers" without standing behind those words- it's very unethical thing to do IMO.

    From what i have seen in your previous posts you did the same- calling others abusers, and not answering any questions regarding your abusing behavior. Please do not run away from answering difficult questions regarding your actions - especially if you say that others are abusing something.

    These forums are not meant to be used as a tool for personal revenge, so please stop doing so and we'll be happy to hear your side of the story- like you said you will answer.

    If you need any assistance write things up- just ask for it. i'm sure that everybody will be happy to assist you.

  • SocialOutlaw-PGOSocialOutlaw-PGO Posts: 35 ✭✭

    Make sure you switch accounts next time. Your bold text usage gave you away.

    I think nanatic should be aware your using two accounts.........

  • SiIverLyra-PGOSiIverLyra-PGO Posts: 346 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As I said, this is extremely off topic.

    I'd suggest you can open a new thread where you can question me, but I don't know if this content is even allowed on the forums.

    As I said, you can message me in real life, I'll happily talk with you. @GiladY-PGO already did, I'm sure he can send you my number. I'm eagerly waiting to hear from you, Korrina.

    This is the last I'll be writing about this personal interrogation. If you have anything to say that has to do with the original post, then I'll gladly discuss it with you.

  • SiIverLyra-PGOSiIverLyra-PGO Posts: 346 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You bring up an interesting point. There was a lot of talk about fake accounts up the thead... I really do wonder where that idea came from.

  • SocialOutlaw-PGOSocialOutlaw-PGO Posts: 35 ✭✭

    I have a 40k criminology degree. One of things I learned was evidence interpretation. Used to be things like handwriting and such but in the modern age it also includes thing like grammar usage, sentence structure, terminology and other things.

    Point two this is the same person. His over usage of the -. Those should be new sentences yet they are written as run on sentences.....

  • WheelTrekker-INGWheelTrekker-ING Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One thing that I "enjoy" about this thread is how some people keeps using "we" and it's all around the fact that if anyone doesn't agree with their point of view then it means that they are attacking them (them meaning the whole nation of Israel).

    Keep on talking about "facts", but they don't show any proof at all, they dodge those question and try to divert attention to unrelated issues.

    Yeah, it's easy to notice that kind of behavior. Surely now I'm an alt account of the OP.

  • korrina2014-PGOkorrina2014-PGO Posts: 24 ✭✭

    And yet you answer other things, seeking to lock this thread but avoiding answering the difficult questions. Why are you avoiding answering us? Do you have anything to hide? I'm waiting in anticipation for answers as you promised.

    i'll write it again- These forums are not meant to be used as a tool for personal revenge, so please stop doing so and we'll be happy to hear your side of the story- like you said you will answer.

  • SocialOutlaw-PGOSocialOutlaw-PGO Posts: 35 ✭✭

    Practice what you preach. Your doing the same thing with me.

    You clearly didnt read my post, you didnt even try to hide it blue.

    Let's see both accounts nomination lists. Let's see what your community has been passing.

    I said from the start it would solve all of this yet you refuse. What's going on blue?

  • rodensteiner-INGrodensteiner-ING Posts: 500 ✭✭✭✭

    i have seen enough Poirot, and suspected the same even when this thread was 5 hours old. you do not need to learn rocket science to find this.

  • SocialOutlaw-PGOSocialOutlaw-PGO Posts: 35 ✭✭

    Well why didnt you call it and prove it? This has gone on long enough hasn't it. I was actually surprised it wasn't locked this morning.

    And it's not rocket science your right, that's why it's an entry level class, but in this day and age people will question you and your experience on a topic so instead of waiting and defending I just lead with it. Establish credibility from the start.

    Doesn't allows work though, sigh, I normally have to deal with a few smart comments and here we are.........

  • rodensteiner-INGrodensteiner-ING Posts: 500 ✭✭✭✭

    theres no need for me to meddle into this kerfuffle.

    i already notifiy niantic three or four times that this thread has gone haywire, but as they all seem to be on holiday, the people here still can feed the birds.

This discussion has been closed.