Was this ever circled back around to?
TheZodiac007-PGO
Posts: 849 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was looking back at things that were posted in the past researching information & trying to take in knowledge to help my local community & also teach other wayfinders in my community & here as well & just thought this was a great question by @GearGlider-ING & that brought me to post this. Thank you to all & I hope everyone is doing well.
Post edited by TheZodiac007-PGO on
Tagged:
Comments
It never had a direct follow up, but since then whenever @NianticCasey-ING mentioned gravesstones, they had to be a notable member of the community, nothing about artistry.
Mentioned most recently in this post.
How to handle nominations with memorial benches or plaques: Memorial benches and plaques should be treated similarly to gravestones in that they're eligible only if dedicated to a noteworthy member of a community or historical figure. The burden of proof for demonstrating that the bench is noteworthy falls to the nominator and is a great use case for the supporting information field.
Perfect. Thank you for sharing @GearGlider-ING. Also, appreciate you asking the question to begin with
Thanks for bringing this back up @TheZodiac007-PGO! In addition to the clarification that @GearGlider-ING surfaced, I will say that gravestones or headstones that are unique, artistic or architectural would also be eligible under the current criteria.
OMG again, isnt this what caused all the confusion in the first place?
This was clarification similar to what you said previously but then edited it away because it was contradictory to previous AMAs and published guides. While those are no longer "the true source," all proir guidelines were that gravestones could not be eligible for artistic value alone but only for historic/cultural relevance. Do you mean to open up the doors to "statues" that are merely grave markers?
pretty sure its not hard to just go into any graveyard and find a bunch of "unique" random gravestones.
Depends on the graveyard. My church's graveyard is 150+ years old, but almost all the headstones are you're regular rectanglularish shaped ones.
@NianticCasey-ING seeing how a lot of people blanket-reject most things in graveyards, these clarifications would be a good one to include on the wayfarer site whenever the big update comes around.
I’m confused now. I thought gravestones/headstones had to be at least 50 years old and for a notable figure? If they can just be visually unique, do they still have to be 50 years old?
If someone nominates my loved ones marker as artistic, do i have the authority to have it removed in game?
Just a reminder @NianticCasey-ING your statements STILL contradict official AND UPDATED, guidance found in https://wayfarer.nianticlabs.com/help#rejection-criteria
I'd really like to chime in here especially if this can be officially clarified in a future AMA or better yet be clarified in the criteria itself. I absolutely understand sensitivity. Also understand that in a cemetery 1000 gravestones can't all be eligible. Bit at least here in the US, SO many cemeteries also serve as parks that people walk in all the time, not just for funerals or visiting lived ones. They have paths and trails, people walking them and their dogs, even having lunch in them at picnic tables. When there are funerals, people are respectful and avoid the area. I absolutely find these to be a place for exercise AND for exploration. I'd like to see cemetery signs as eligible as park signs (they are rarely anywhere near active funerals that take place within) AND some of the artistic or unique cemetery markers are awesome to explore and make great POIs.
Because so many of these cemeteries are used in this way I'd like the criteria to be officially reconsidered, expressly. IF a cemetery is private or not intended for people to walk in or whatever, the cemetery management can have POIs removed like any other legit place that someone doesn't want to be a portal. But at least around me, nearly every cemetery I know is also used as a safe place to walk and has so many interesting things that could be submitted.
Just my 2 cents 😁
For what it's worth, under the old criteria, the example they gave for an acceptable gravestone (I think in "Potentially Confusing Wayspots?") was for Elvis Presley, who died less than 50 years ago. This suggests that the 50 years old thing hasn't been a requirement since at least the start of Wayfarer.
So all we need to do is reconcile this statement from November's AMA
Private places of mourning such as individual gravestones or mausoleums are generally too sensitive to be eligible. However, any locations in cemeteries that have become public attractions are eligible. This would include memorials for famous individuals, historical chapels, and government historical markers
With this new clarification from Casey
Gravestones or headstones that are unique, artistic or architectural would also be eligible under the current criteria
And then factor in this list of ineligible objects/places from the rejection criteria
Sensitive locations like gravestones (not associated with a significant/historical figure) and cemeteries
What is the point in stating that unique/artistic gravestones are eligible, if the the rejection criteria just make them instantly ineligible? And since gravestones for famous individuals were already eligible, whether they are unique/artistic or not is surely irrelevant? Feels like a can of worms that didn't really need to be opened 😕
@NianticCasey-ING Could we get a further clarified classification on all of this? It seems as if it is completely contradictory at this time. Are only private cemeteries sensitive or are public ones sensitive too? The thing for me is if it’s public & the cemetery/whomever else don’t want a POI there, they can appeal it. Also, most gravestones aren’t artistic & most are just standard in the majority of cemeteries. What @EvilDoctorSlice-ING posted above further shows that it is contradictory & proves how hard it is for us to even attempt to even submit anything in a cemetery. At this time it isn’t even worth it. If we could have a better explanation on this it would make it easier on those of us that want to submit something in cemeteries but have kept from it due to the nature of how cemeteries are portrayed from the perspective of the reviewer. If graves of notable people are acceptable it would be extremely helpful to know that they’re all acceptable & cannot be labeled as sensitive because of their fame. Thank you for your time. There are a lot of good questions asked before mine. If we could have all of the questions answered we may have a better idea of what can/ cannot be submitted. For now, I’m staying away from submitting nominations in cemeteries until we have better classification
That wasnt even at a graveyard though.
what was the point of clarification?
the niantic user reply just add confusion.
why is the need for a clarification?? is there a random cool-looking gravestone worth submitting? doubt that it will be easily accepted.
rejection criteria says graveyards are location sensitive.
where is the doubts? isn't the criteria page clear enough?
In all honesty, this discussion, while interesting, is purely theoretical in my opinion. No gravestone will ever pass, because everything that's even close to a cemetery is always rejected in my experience.
World War memorials, chapels, plaques about historical events, deportation memorial sites - they are all, without fail, rejected, no matter what the guidelines say. It's an easy agreement for reviewers, and nobody cares if they should be eligible under the current guidelines.
Until there's a way to appeal rejected nominations (and I don't think that there ever will be), I won't even bother trying to nominate stuff in cemeteries, no matter how eligible they are.
I think it's not that hard as you think, maybe your area has very strict reviewers about cementeries, but in my location I see new POIs appears on cementery.
It's mostly chapels and crosses, but some memorial gravestones for war soliders or gravestone of a famous person also often get accepted. I see it when I get another POI from the same area to review after some time, in small towns it's easy to see new POIs added and there is often some new things on cementary that appear.
It's just as cementery is so sensitive location many reviewers don't want to accept anything on them to not disturb anyone on cementary.
I know it's possible to get something accepted on cementary, but it's really hard thing to do and it just might be easier in some areas than in others. Maybe it's also related to different countires, in some countries cementeries aren't as sensitive location as in others.
"It's just as cementery is so sensitive location many reviewers don't want to accept anything on them to not disturb anyone on cementary."
Exactly. It's an automatic rejection for people in my area. In our forums (Discord, Facebook groups etc.) there is an absolute and unquestionable consensus that anything that's in a cemetery is to be automatically rejected. There are people advocating for marking anything that's in a cemetery as abuse. Arguments, even direct quotes from the guidelines, are automatically dismissed.
So yeah, I find it interesting and nice that we're clarifying minor details about eligibility, but ultimately it's the reviewers who decide what's eligible. And their decision is that cemeteries are an even harder "no" than schools.
That's really sad what I got from your post, as it's just perfect example of local reviewers from one area that make up they own rules about what's eligible and review only by they opinion and not official guidenes :/
I hope Niantic work on Wayfarer will do something about it too, as some thing on cementeries are eligible and only because someone don't like it isn't enough reason to reject them.
I remember one thread appeal about removing a cross on entrance to cementary only because it's on cementary (but real reason was more related to team fights about portals, and being on cementary was just an excuse to get portal of another team removed). We gave this person one advice: "If you don't like POIs on cementary, then don't play here, it's not mandatory to play here".
I wish more people would just think like that too - if they don't like some POI that is eligible, then don't play near it. If it's eligible there isn't a reason to not approve it or remove it - it would make Wayfarer and all Niantic's games much easier. But we have what we have now, I hope it will be better in the future.
i get the point. even today, in my country, things graveyard-related get accepted.
according to the rejection criteria, they shouldn't be. but nobody cares/report them and if some local nominator whines that his graveyard-related nom got rejected.. the community knows that the whining is illogical because its in the rejection criteria.
you can try nominate and get lucky.. but don't whine if its get rejected.
You don't seem to get the point, though. But at least you illustrate my previous comments perfectly: you misunderstand/misinterpret the guidelines, routinely reject nominations that should be eligible according to the guidelines and even repeatedly say that people who are upset about false rejections are "whining". Classy.
Clarification is the action of making a statement or situation less confused and more comprehensible. That’s why I was asking for clarification on the current classification because their response was very confusing. I’m not talking about any specific gravestones. The current criteria makes it blurry. It can be taken in many ways. I was asking about the artistic, historical & mainly the famous ones. Normally, when I post here I’m specifically asking for others, not myself & trying to get replies from Niantic to better help us all. I use discord, twitch, etc...
I agree if someone doesn’t like an area, they don’t have to play there. If the area is public, sadly it is in a submittable location, regardless though.
It is also sad to me that reviewers make up their own guidelines. If Niantic said otherwise though & explained it to reviewers while reviewing & explained the new criteria before forcing a new test. It would help. Especially if it were changed on the test. Niantic makes the rules, we only say gravestones are ineligible because what we see on the current classified criteria & the test. But, not all cemeteries are sensitive. For me, I mainly care about famous graves but I wanted to word the question to include more to help everyone in the process.
i wasn't talking about your posts.
but it is in the rejection criteria as location sensitive. i honestly dont see why there is the need for this clarification.
good luck nominating stuff inside the sensitive locations like those graveyards.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You really didn't read and/or understand any of my comments, did you? :D
I only submit churches, war memorials and bells as wayspots in cemeteries.
There are some large cemeteries here which have historical graves or graves that are visually unique because they have statues, for example, but I do not submit them. Not because of the low chance of success, but because from a certain number of wayspots it leads to the creation of an Gym in Pokémon Go and then people feel disturbed again.
Then the abusive deletion starts again, that's annoying!
I would love to submit Wayspots inside cemeteries without the Gyms arising!
I've said in other threads I think it needs to be common sense of the submitter to choose something that would be acceptable to local people. They know their cemeteries best after all. Then reviewers should take into account the criteria and what the submission says and vote accordingly.
I would not just reject everything in a cemetery. I'd try to weigh up all the information.
In my area, some are active cemeteries that are not really open to the public except for funerals or quietly visiting graves - these seem less good places for POIs centred on a gravestone unless it is for a famous person maybe. They are usually part of a crematorium, so there isn't a current congregation coming to worship there. However most of these also have some war memorial, chapel or other important focal point and those are fine places for a POI.
Some cemeteries are historic, often these have been full for many years, and have beautiful carved headstones on many graves, and a lot of history. These tend to be used more as parkland and have more visitors who aren't going to visit a particular grave. Usually they are part of a church with a current congregation. I think here, people are happy to accept a wider range of potential POIs, for example artistic headstones, statues etc.
I would always treat these submissions sensitively and try to stick to criteria, common sense, and local knowledge if appropriate.
So, what's next? Allow Wayspots inside schools because the object is unique, artistic or architectural?
This "clarification" is a disaster. You're opening a can of worms.
well that isnt true at all. Here in Germany, the Chapel at the cemetery ALWAYS get thru as a wayspot. Also, if there are 1st/2nd WW Memorials, they go thru. Also, if there are other large X-s, they go thru.
Not true at all. Cemetery here, mostly graves of famous people. All POI.