We need to talk about very frustrating Wayfarer experience

rekire-PGOrekire-PGO Posts: 31 ✭✭

I am frustrated about Wayfarer and I guess I'm not the only person. I suggested 140 wayspots and just 39 were accepted and 11 are in review.

I suggested a lot of things which should be fine, like painted garage doors, cultural heritage buildings (with Wikipedia listings), small street signs with explains the street names, a fancy unique mailbox, a neat front yard in Chinese style, ornate wood carvings on front doors (for sure a master peace), interesting looking facade on buildings (without special historic meaning) or multiple huge self made sculptures on a front yard.

Some were of private properties: Yes I know it, but you do not need to enter the property it is to see from the public street with sidewalks. So I see there absolutely no problem with it. If you don't want to anyone looks at it do not make it visible. So this rule should not be applied. Those cultural heritage buildings have special protection by law. So someone already decided that this is something worth to protect and look at.

I know well that it is easy to make a simple playground or a simple (christian) cross to a wayspot. Those are boring not noting special to me. To be honest I don't like to stay for a longer time at such a place just to gain some points for a game when I have no kids playing there.

The reviews take much too long. It takes month! In fact I just got one rejected after being about 4 month in review, with about one month wating in the queue. Give us some kind of feedback about the progress. I know that this can be differnt. I suggested once 3 waystops where nothing else was to see within about 3-5km those were accepted within a couple of days!

You want that your players have enough spots to play with your games why do you make this sooo complicated? Of cause I know there are tons of **** suggestions, but I guess most people won't accept those.

Comments

  • rekire-PGOrekire-PGO Posts: 31 ✭✭
    edited May 2021

    Well that 40 meter rule might be helpful in the US or Australia where everybody has huge properties, but outside I would guess 90-99% of all waystops are invalid in my country. So I guess that this rule is fine for the US, but not in other countries.


    Sorry, but that is a so typical Ingress-Player answer :-D The rules are not a holy book and even those can be interpreted differently.

    If you don't life in a region with hundreds of playgrounds, crosses or tones of historical buildings with none private buildings nearby you can enjoy the non Ingress Niantic games. I really don't get why ingress players focus to much on their game. I mean fine for Ingress you might just want bigger triangles and don't care about many portals.

    Please don't be grumpy, please be open for other opinions.

  • Aeryle88-PGOAeryle88-PGO Posts: 440 ✭✭✭

    There are many problems about that:

    -Niantic must provide POI everywhere in order to let as many people as possible to play Niantic's games in good conditions. So they prioritize area with not enought POI. That's a good idea but that create other problems on wayfarer.

    -Submissions in some area took too much times to be analized. And during this time, the submission can be submitted again by other players. That's create duplica and add many useless submissions in the system. Maybe Niantic should lock submission in cell where there are already a submission in the queue...

    -Too many trash submissions. No real solution on that.

    -Too many submissions in queue. There is two solutions for that, one bad and one good. The bad one is to lock submissions in area with many POI. That's bad because many player will simply stop use wayfarer. The good one is on Niancti side: if they review many submission (and hire people to do that) in addition of player's validations, they can reduce the queue...

  • rekire-PGOrekire-PGO Posts: 31 ✭✭

    I know at least three cases of that:

    "Submissions in some area took too much times to be analized. And during this time, the submission can be submitted again by other players. That's create duplica and add many useless submissions in the system. Maybe Niantic should lock submission in cell where there are already a submission in the queue..."

    I agree with you that there should be some kind of warning that there is already a submission mission nearby, with the option to mark the suggestion directly as dub with some kind of mechanics to improve the submission image. I had one case where one was marked as dub (I submitted it before there was a waystop) and then because the primary picture of that waystop.

    The strange thing is that I know five cases where a waystop was rejected and later later accepted, even submitted by different players.

  • SiIverLyra-PGOSiIverLyra-PGO Posts: 952 ✭✭✭✭✭

    With submissions literally all over the world, I don't think Niantic would have had any willingness to start changing the guidelines for every single country even if it were logically possible. The cost of the legal consulting for that would've been ginormous, and we already know the company isn't really willing to spend much on Wayfarer.

    The 40 meters rule is there to cover all bases and since there's legal issues involved, I really don't think there's any point in trying to get them to change that. If there's anything big companies avoid like the plague, it's lawsuits.

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 3,469 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What others have said above, but put more gently:

    The rule about things on private residential property exists partially because Niantic has been sued for this in the past. It also exists to avoid creating a nuisance situation for the people who live there. This isn't an Ingress-player answer, it's based largely on the behavior of Pokemon Go players (of which I'm also one.)

    For Ingress players, the 99.999% use case for something on private residential property would be a quick hack or deploy, generally one person at a time, and they would spend no more than 1-2 minutes there. Contrast this with a raid where there can be 5-10 people or potentially more gathered in the area for several minutes, and they can be excited and loud. They may also get so caught up in what they're doing that they don't notice (or don't care) that they're on the property itself and possibly causing damage. HPWU has some of the same issues if it's a fortress.

    This is one of those rules where I don't ever expect Niantic to provide any sort of wiggle room or local variation. If it's on private residential property then it should be rejected.

  • Rodensteiner-PGORodensteiner-PGO Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am Not an Ingress Player, i Just choose this instead of pgo.

    Also i am Not grumpy.

    I am trying to Tell you that you Just cannot Bend some Rules.

    This isnt a country road that Has a Speed Limit of 80, and you Go 100 because you think you have some room for maneuver.

    If you do anyway, feel free to resubmit until you get your poi.

  • Aeryle88-PGOAeryle88-PGO Posts: 440 ✭✭✭

    False rejection are also a problem and explain why a submission can be rejected the first time and accepted the second time.

    There can be some solution to false rejections, but Niantic have to put some efforts in them. Solving the false rejection problem would certainly reduce the number of submissions in queue. (Less false rejections = less submission submitted multiple times)

    False rejection occur more often on trail markers than on other submissions, so Niantic have to claerly explian to reviewer that trail markers are correct.

    They should also let people to make appeal of rejections. That could reduced the submission queue in the long term.


    Don’t forget that the aim is to complete the POI map. This will took years before Niantic mangae to do that, but they can make the system quicker by improving wayfarer.

  • rekire-PGOrekire-PGO Posts: 31 ✭✭

    I do not think that my suggestions are trash just because some are at the border of private residential property. My point is that it should not matter if there life one or two families. If it is on a huge private residential property which you cannot see from the street or without binoculars it is absolutely clear that this should be rejected.

    I'm talking about "normal" streets where are multiple houses in a row. Might be with a small front yard where nobody cares about that someone is walking on the public sidewalk. It should be possible to add wayspots there too. My point is that I really don't get why this should be an issue. If if put art in my front yard directly at the sidewalk I want that people will look at it, it is intended!

    To clarify trash I'm talking about: oblivious faked stops where the wayspot cannot be verified because the location is wrong, simple trees, cigarette or chewing gum automates or just people of the submitter him/her/itself.

    I do not talk about bending rules I just want to have clear and logical rules. That rule is not logical how it is defined right now, I think the main aspect should be public and safe accessibility. A normal sidewalk is public.

  • Rodensteiner-PGORodensteiner-PGO Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭✭✭

    you already had the information you need:

    In cases where the complaining party in Section 2.1(a) is the owner of a single-family residential property and the party reviewing the complaint determines that the complained of POI is on or within 40 meters of that property, Niantic will instruct that reviewer to remove the POI from the property. In cases where the resolution specified in 2.1(a) or 2.1(b) requires removal of a POI, Niantic will use CRE to perform that removal within five business days of the communication from Niantic agreeing to such action. (c) Niantic will use CRE to maintain a database of complaints related to nuisance or trespass and requests to remove a POI, for a minimum of 1 (one) year from the date of the complaint. Niantic will also continue to use CRE to avoid the placement of new POI on single-family residential property. (d) Niantic will maintain a form on its website whereby an owner of singlefamily residential property can request that any POI on or within 40 meters of their property be removed. In cases where Niantic has previously removed a POI from the property of a single-family residential home, and in cases where Niantic does so in the future during the settlement period, Niantic agrees to use CRE to avoid re-placing that POI on that same singlefamily residential property. 

  • rekire-PGOrekire-PGO Posts: 31 ✭✭

    Right I had this information, but in my opinion this rule. Does not make sense and I welcome the option to "out-out" to be a "waystop owner". Again: If I put art on my front yard I welcome people to look it at.

    I just disagree with this rule if the wayspot in directly at the sidewalk.

  • Jtronmoore-PGOJtronmoore-PGO Posts: 1,581 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So you know its private property but you submit regardless and clog the system. Your what slows down wayfaire. Congrats

  • HankWolfman-PGOHankWolfman-PGO Posts: 4,843 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Where I live, there's a house not too far from here that's called Narnia. In their garden, they have a huge stone statue of Aslan (who is the lion from the Chronicles of Narnia if you aren't familiar with the stories or their characters). This statue is awesome, and if it was in a public place it would make an excellent wayspot, but it's in their garden by their front door.

    Your argument is that they put this there for everyone to enjoy, but how would you know that? This is their private home. Just because they bought a statue for their garden, it doesn't mean they want everyone going into their garden and up to their front door just to admire the statue. They bought it because they enjoy it, and it's important to them.

    If your argument in response to that is that people don't have to go into the garden to admire or interact with that wayspot, unfortunately that's not accurate, as certain actions in Ingress require you to be basically stood right on top of the wayspot, which would mean in this case that you would be committing the act of trespassing.

  • 1A1Tiypo1A1-PGO1A1Tiypo1A1-PGO Posts: 13 ✭✭


    So if this private statue became a POI. And let say it became a GYM in pokemonGo. And people are there taking over the GYM and decide to perhaps go and touch it. Maybe one decides to go and climb it. Maybe you wouldn't do something like that. But not everyone thinks like that. By making a POI on private property, you are inviting all types of players, which could potentially lead to another lawsuit. Its not worth the risk.

  • Babarushki-PGOBabarushki-PGO Posts: 195 ✭✭✭

    “Please don’t be grumpy, please be open to other opinions.”

    The RULE on PRP is far from an opinion, as others have correctly pointed out. Stating a fact is not grumpiness.

    Please read the rules and criteria carefully. Get to know those rules so you will be a better submitter and reviewer.Most are not up for debate, Especially those that were created for legal reasons such as PRP.

  • rekire-PGOrekire-PGO Posts: 31 ✭✭

    I think you should never touch art (maybe except blind people). Being respectful is IMHO one of the most important rule... If not... well this forum would censor me, so you can imagine it^^

    That PRP rule is not actionable in general. If I look on the ingress map and watch all portals, in let's say a 2km radius, all about 20 should have been deleted because every single portal is nearby a PRP. This would break the games (likely except of Ingress) if you don't break this rule.

    By the way I know no playgrounds which are not in a 40m range to a PRP and I know almost one dozen playgrounds.

  • Jtronmoore-PGOJtronmoore-PGO Posts: 1,581 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You need to re read and try to understand the rules. The 40m part is basically saying “do you think this is too close to someones property and will affect them in anyway” not “creat a 40m radius around a single residential house and have it as a dead zone”. And also if home owners find it too much disturbance that a park has a gym or poi in the area they can easily submit a form and have the gym/portal removed or become a raidless gym as well.

    Don’t try to confuse that rule with the fact you openly admit to submitting things that are clear examples of private property nominations to avoid :garage doors, ornament on someones front yard, peoples front doors.

    Like you got to be kidding me.

  • Rodensteiner-PGORodensteiner-PGO Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the PRP Question isnt debatable. Just submit your stuff and get an acceptance, or rejection.

  • Hosette-INGHosette-ING Posts: 3,469 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rekire-PGO It's certainly reasonable to believe that the PRP rule shouldn't exist. It's even reasonable to petition Niantic to change it, although I think your chances of success are 0%.

    What isn't reasonable is acting as though the rule doesn't exist or doesn't apply to you just because you don't like it.

  • Unsafe2K-PGOUnsafe2K-PGO Posts: 3 ✭✭

    i agree with the part " Give us some kind of feedback about the progress of wayspots"

    i totally agree with that!

  • rekire-PGOrekire-PGO Posts: 31 ✭✭

    Thank you all for your feedback. It seems that submitting and reviewing is a huge waste of time, since I am sure that 90% are PRP (or at least in the 40m radius), is 5% not safe, 4.5% are fakes and 0.5% valid.

  • sogNinjaman-INGsogNinjaman-ING Posts: 3,313 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Again - you are confusing the PRP rule and the "40 m radius" condition. There is absolutely nothing that says "anything within 40m of a Private Residential Propery should be automatically rejected.

    "What makes a good way spot"

    Please be sure to closely review nominations whose real-world location appears to be within 40 meters of private, single-family residential property, and nominations whose real-world location appears to be in a neighborhood park. To be clear, nominations should be rejected if their real-world location appears to be on private, single-family residential property or might encourage people to go onto private property (e.g., because the real-world location is at the end of a private driveway).

    All the above guidance asks is that we "closely review nominations whose location appears to be within 40m of a PRP". Nothing about rejecting them by default. If there is something like an official designated playground within 40m of a house then that is perfectly acceptable as a nomination, as the householder should have an expection that people will be going there to play.

  • Rodensteiner-PGORodensteiner-PGO Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭✭✭

    yes you are right in saying that your submissions are a waste of your time, and time of the persons reviewing it - when you wish to proceed with your own rules.

    We do have alot of things in Peoples front gardens, that maybe looks very nice to you, and maybe even feels a bit fancy and artsy. In Germany People tend to put up stone gardens with relics like an anchor (yes, really, my neighbour), garden dwarfs or unicorns.

    And yes, sometimes there are no fences, and you can just go there and touch it.

    That does not make it an eligible wayspot when it is a private home of a person or family.

    As you said yourself:

    "I suggested a lot of things which should be fine, like painted garage doors, cultural heritage buildings (with Wikipedia listings), small street signs with explains the street names, a fancy unique mailbox, a neat front yard in Chinese style, ornate wood carvings on front doors (for sure a master peace), interesting looking facade on buildings (without special historic meaning) or multiple huge self made sculptures on a front yard."

    • Painted Garage in Single Private Property - nogo
    • Cultural Heritage Building - in a front yard? that should go thru
    • small street signs -> total different thing. these are street signs and thus generic things that are mass produced. it doesnt change the fact that there is sometimes a little sign under OLGA-LUTSCHKOSKI-RING that says that Olga Lutschkoski was a famous writer. These signs sometimes someplace have been accepted, but are not eligible wayspots
    • a fancy unique mailbox in a single private property home is a nogo
    • a neat front yard in a single private property home is a nogo
    • ornated wood carvings on front doors in a single private property home is a nogo
    • interesting faces or huge sculptures in front yards in a single private property home is a nogo

    Mehrfamilienhaus geht immer! Zeig einfach das es ein Mehrfamilienhaus ist! Lass einfach die Privaten Häuser in Ruhe.

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