Please Help Me Understand What I’m Missing

xLilPoundcake-PGOxLilPoundcake-PGO Posts: 104 Ambassador
edited July 2021 in Nomination Improvement

Hi! Please help me understand why this submission has been rejected twice for inappropriate activity. I want to submit it again, but if places like this one can’t get through Wayfarer but every baseball field in North America can, I actually don’t understand what we’re doing here.

If I’m missing something, please let me know. To me, this seems like a great submission. (I encourage you to follow the link in the supplementary info to see their mission). I’ve already wasted two upgrades on this, but I want to try again if you all think I should.

*Edit: The description was written by me aside from the direct quote from the Founder which is in quotation marks. If the direct quote, or the researched recidivism (the rate at which former inmates end up back in prison after serving time) rate is the problem, should I take those out? And if I do, is the description still detailed enough to provide an adequate overview of why this restaurant is unique?

Moreover, the first time this was rejected it was for "inappropriate activity" at the location. I really do want to understand what is going on here, as this is just a restaurant. In Cleveland, we're proud of the mission of Edwins and have been for a long time, but if the mission itself is what is getting flagged as "inappropriate," I'm not quite sure what to say. I would like to think that this is not the problem....


Post edited by xLilPoundcake-PGO on

Comments

  • Roli112-PGORoli112-PGO Posts: 2,236 Ambassador

    Is the description your own... seems "copy pasted"

  • xLilPoundcake-PGOxLilPoundcake-PGO Posts: 104 Ambassador

    No, it's definitely mine and I agonized over it. For the record, I have a PhD in English, so that helps.

  • flatmatt-PGOflatmatt-PGO Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Speaking for myself only, if a description seems too much like an advertisement, I will generally do a Google search on the text or on parts of the text. If I don't find anything, then I can proceed and rate as normal. An original description usually isn't a deal-breaker, even when it reads as an advertisement.

    I think what this.particular submission needs is less explanation of the educational program and more explanation of why someone would want to come here as a customer (beyond simply supporting the program). Does it have great ratings online, has it won any awards? That type of thing.

  • Roli112-PGORoli112-PGO Posts: 2,236 Ambassador

    Yeah, I wouldn't reject without verifying, but since this one was a photo I couldn't just copy to search so I opted to ask just in case. Yes, its well written and personally like it and the nomination overall.

  • xLilPoundcake-PGOxLilPoundcake-PGO Posts: 104 Ambassador

    I mean, that tracks (I've done a lot of work in marketing because of my field!).... I'm an English prof with a marketing background, so I guess now that you point it out, it does read like it was written by, well, me.

    Edwins itself has won a lot of awards, has been featured in a documentary, and a short film. I relayed some of that in the supporting information, but do you think this would do better in review if I moved that to the description itself? Maybe something like this? (Please workshop/draft with me I love it! Lol)

    "Edwins Too is a new restaurant location opened in 2020 by the Edwins Restaurant & Leadership Institute. This location is managed by soon to be graduates of the program with the aim of training formerly incarcerated adults to manage a high-end fine dining establishment, and serves French cuisine. Cleveland is very proud of what the Edwins founder is accomplishing for the community, and the restaurants are extremely popular. The Institute was featured in the documentary 'Knife Skills,' and in the short film '100 Second Chances.'"


    My concern is that getting upgrades takes a lot of effort and time, and I've already used two on this. Also, I'm still not sure why this has been flagged as "inappropriate" twice, and I would really want some clarity on that before I waste my time again.

  • ExCon92-INGExCon92-ING Posts: 45 ✭✭✭
  • cyndiepooh-INGcyndiepooh-ING Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I will do a Google Search on text if it seems too out of character from the rest of the submission and only call it copy/paste if I turn something up that matches exactly.

    I assume it is the reference to incarcerated folks that is getting the "inappropriate" or "sensitive" location rejections. But that is the whole point of the restaurant. I like the way you reworded the description in workshopping. Except leave out "new" since the game will be around a while, and add in about the awards - maybe (I copied and edited what you wrote) "Edwins Too is an award winning restaurant opened in 2020 by the Edwins Restaurant & Leadership Institute. Managed by soon to be graduates of the program with the aim of training formerly incarcerated adults to run a high-end fine dining establishment, the restaurant is extremely popular. The Institute was featured in the documentary 'Knife Skills,' and in the short film '100 Second Chances.'"

    Fyi, clicking on the text box to read all the supporting information only works sometimes for me as a reviewer. Hence, I try to keep my statements to 200 characters. Your supporting statement should be why it meets criteria (done) and how the reviewer can tell it exists where pinned if it isn't obvious on Maps. But I Googled "edwins too" and it is clear on Street View, so you don't need to say much to convince people it is there. I love including the url in the supporting information for verification but get it closer to the top of the text box. You can say it meets criteria as a "a placemark of local interest and importance and which makes our communities unique" from the definition of a place for exploration under the criteria tab.

    You can improve the supporting photo. It is badly worded on the pogo prompt, but the supporting photo should show the poi from further away to give an idea where it is sitting irl.

    And if all else fails, try not upgrading it to get more eyes on it. But if your area is like mine, nothing moves without an upgrade.

  • Jtronmoore-PGOJtronmoore-PGO Posts: 1,581 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To me it looks like a good nomination. Have you tried letting it go through local reviewers instead of upgrading?

  • xLilPoundcake-PGOxLilPoundcake-PGO Posts: 104 Ambassador

    Thank you so much! Sadly, if I don’t upgrade, nothing ever moves here. I’ve had some nominations that I’ve tried this with that have been in the queue since —and this is amazing but true — December 2019. Sigh.

  • Oakes1923-PGOOakes1923-PGO Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2021

    @xLilPoundcake-PGO Looks like you may just be diving into the Wayfarer forum world, but you probably have already noticed that the criteria and nomination improvement forums are littered with the corpses of good restaurant nominations. Sadly there is a core within Wayfarer that seems to have a vendetta against restaurants in general and unwittingly cause a cascading negative impact on how they are reviewed as whole.

    I've had some restaurants go right through, on an upgrade, with very little local review. I've had others sit in local voting for months get upgraded only to immediately get rejected, and still some others get both rejected and approved by just letting them sit (for months on end). A well written restaurant nomination is at best a 50/50 proposition currently.

    The issue is a series of factors. However to understand them you first have to realize how tilted the voting balance is currently. Its been theory crafted that it takes far less rejection votes to get something to agreement then it does approval votes. By some calculations 1/3 to a 1/4 fewer no's vs yes's. So if it takes 25-30 5* votes to get something approved, it may take less then 10 1*votes to get that same items rejected. With some folks only accepting, what they deem to be pristine nominations and disallowing the rest, it leads to other less scrupulous voters to believe that they should reject nearly every restaurant (I don't want my rating to suffer!). Then there are always the agreement fishers who plow through several nominations just looking to pick off easy agreements. Restaurants are hard so its an easy 1* for them and thank you very much for the free 1% toward their upgrade of a random gazebo. As noted earlier, since it takes far fewer no votes to get something through the system, those that may be very well intended actually have an overall negative impact on the voting as a whole, which is why we see restaurants and coffee shops as the biggest losers when it comes to invalid and unsubstantiated rejections reasons. When they add their couple of no votes to a good submission that has hit some bad luck with bad reviewers it tips the scale the wrong direction. A no vote is more powerful then a yes vote.

    So lets look at your submission;

    The first picture doesn't **** restaurant. As an English PHD I'm guessing that the old adage, a book by its cover, strikes a cord. Don't get me wrong, your picture is fine, but it doesn't jump out at you as a no brainer wayspot. Guarunteed you got some no votes based on the picture alone.

    As for your descriptions, A for effort, the information was stellar, F for execution. The first sentence says "new restaurant", combine that with a less then engaging picture and honestly you already lost. Some reviewers will see new restaurant and immediately say, "it can't be 'popular' or 'hyperlocal' if its new... duh". The final reason was TL;DR. I'm in sales and 90% of my engagement is via email and I work with librarians (medical librarians). For them often more is more, but also sometimes less is more. I think you wordsmithed it too much for this audience.

    I'd suggest the following; better picture if you can (not always easy). Make the description tighter; add something along the lines of, "a culinary institute, specializing in training for former incarcerated adults". Supporting information should include reviews of Brandon's Chrostowski's restaurants as a whole or information about him (awards won or local spotlight articles etc). I may even cahnge the title to Edwin's Too Culinary Institute.

    Its unfortunate that we have to go to these lengths for something Niantic has plainly stated is acceptable as a POI, yet every gazebo, playground and trail marker gets through without much hassle; but its the reality of the situation. Best of luck and next time I'm in Cleveland I will be checking this place out. Hopefully I have a Pokestop to spin!

  • xLilPoundcake-PGOxLilPoundcake-PGO Posts: 104 Ambassador

    Thank you so much for your very thoughtful, detailed, and helpful response. It's nice to finally see an explanation of how the voting system actually weighs things, and to get some insight on the reason restaurants rate so poorly in Wayfarer. I had no idea. It helps me to understand why every swing-set in the world is carefully accounted for when legitimately interesting local places are not.

    As far as improving the picture goes, that may just be what I'm working with due to the placement of the restaurant in that section of the Square. I'm still debating if I'll submit this again. Honestly, having this nomination rejected twice is really disheartening for a few reasons, but one is really because this is an organization that really does make Cleveland so unique. We are all so proud of the work that everyone is doing there, and they deserve to have so much recognition. I'm afraid it's actually getting rejected because of the "formerly incarcerated" workers part of the text, and there is nothing I can do about that. Maybe if they spent more time in an awesome town like Cleveland they would change their minds. ;)

    The next neighborhood over is an arts district that barely has any waypoints at all, and there are six art galleries and a glassblowing studio on the street! My upgrades (i.e., time and effort that I am not paid to do) are probably better spent there. The next time you're in town, head over to the East side! It's surprisingly amazing here.

    *And you nailed it: like your medical librarians, I'm a "more is more" person. Bad habits die hard. Thanks again.

  • Kuleisbjorn-PGOKuleisbjorn-PGO Posts: 112 ✭✭✭

    It's really sad how great places like these are rejected. I just had a book café in my small town that hosts book readings, concerts, quiz, etc that's run by an award winning writer, artist and film maker who also won the local culture price for his contributions to the local society and establishing the place as an important cultural venue rejected for explicit and inappropriate activity, so I know how you feel.

  • xLilPoundcake-PGOxLilPoundcake-PGO Posts: 104 Ambassador

    Wow, that's trash. I really just don't get what some people are thinking. When I actually legitimately have the thought "if only my culturally rich, urban area had more soccer fields" there is a problem.

    Eventually Niantic will figure out that other developers and geomapping data collection firms will pay a lot more for maps (and associated data) that include more shops, restaurants, and culturally relevant things that are not playground slides and soccer fields, and they'll do something about this. I guess for now, what you pay for is what you get, and if you're getting your (oftentimes) paying customers to build your product for you for free, you're probably fine with whatever trash they give you as long as they keep it coming.

    Sorry, Wayfarer makes me even more cynical than usual.

  • Kuleisbjorn-PGOKuleisbjorn-PGO Posts: 112 ✭✭✭

    Yeah, the free labour from Wayfarers is more valuable to them than the quality of that labour. They'd rather exploit the community than do anything to help us.

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