Niantic: On a Vague Nomination, Would You Rather Skip or "I Don't Know"?

Which is more useful to deciding a nomination, “I don’t know”, or “Skip”?

Back in the day, Krug said it was better to give a nomination all 3s (“I don’t know” on the old system) than skip.
However, today if we hit “I don’t know” on every category - we can’t submit unless we say “Yes” or “No” to “Are these categories appropriate?”

For example this one. I don’t know if the nominator carried that sign into there. I don’t know if a trail is there. They didn’t include links. Sure, I could research every nomination, but it gets old to keep having to make the effort when they didn’t.


Is “Trail Marker” an appropriate category? “Biking Trail”? I don’t know! If I say yes, it looks like it should pass. If I say no, it looks like I know they’re lying. But I don’t know!

Because I didn’t want to mark the suggested Categories yes/no, I skipped. Even tho I know the system is backed up now (without ML), and I’ve always suspected that skipping puts a nomination into limbo. If this is real, I’d like them to get the rejection, then resubmit with more info!

First off, you can choose IDK for all 7 main questions, and no for all the categories before submitting. Keep in mind that the categories aren’t required to be submitted in Ingress, just PoGo, so there are times you may get nominations without any categories selected. They also don’t matter that much, except for how they may be listed on the Spatial/Lightship map.

Like with everything, we should use our best judgment. I can’t say whether or not this is a trail marker, but from the map, there does appear to be a trail for hiking/biking in the area. Just opening up Google Maps and searching the area, there is a large park with trails in this area.

Yes, it can be frustrating to do extra work as reviewers. However, in this case, just by opening up Google Maps and taking a larger look at this area, I think this is a trail marker (screenshot not the best) for one of the trails at said park. I don’t think I would need to investigate much further.

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“Niantic”

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And you think that they’ll get a quick answer from staff?

Would Niantic rather me say “No” to the categories? Over skipping? Even though I don’t know it’s NOT (for example) a trail?

The demo nomination was just to show Niantic that sometimes nominations are ambiguous.

I would think “I don’t know” is more helpful in resolving the nomination. It communicates that there are doubts but not certainties. That the nominator needs to supply more information.

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You can say whatever you want to the categories. You can even suggest what you feel is best. If you feel this is better just being a sign, you can just suggest Sign.

The categories really don’t matter in-game. Besides, I’ve seen some Wayspots with inaccurate categories, but I can see what the Wayspot is, read what it is, etc. I know a church is a church, even if the map has the category as Place Name Sign only because the main photo includes the church’s sign.

The categories were imported from another database, not created by Niantic, and there are things that get nominated and approved that don’t even have categories. If I get a softball field, the closest is Athletic Field in general, as there is no Softball Field to choose.

Back in the day, Mr. Krug gave a lot of Ingress AMA answers that often included “I think,” “it’s my opinion,” or “I don’t know but I’ll check with Nia Ops” and never provided further information and many times contradictory. The community collectively took his statements as gospel but I think more were incorrect than we were lead to believe.

There’s a lot of slop to dig through. Before I started searching the archives, I couldn’t remember him saying it was any better or worse to 3* or skip. In trying to find something to back you up, I did find this response…

Q139: Could you comment on what the OPR rating stars actually mean? Our local chats have been debating this round and round again. Some say that 5* is full accept, 3* is unsure, 1* is reject, so therefore 2* is a rejection but not terrible, 4* is accepting but not 100% behind it. Others argue that 2* and up are acceptances, since 1* is the only reject.
A139: Three is considered neutral. Anything less is negative and anything above is positive. 1 being the most negative and 5 being the most positive.
Ingress AMA Archive

There was also the following response I always found odd:

Q47: In OPR, why are the categories 1-5 stars? Several of them should be binary Yes/No or ternary Yes/No/Maybe. For example, for Location - 1 star would suggest wrong location (which should disqualify it, per Portal Criteria), 3 is maybe it is there, and 5 is definitely there, I can see on the map or in street view. What would 2 or 4 mean? Similarly, Title. It’s either accurate, or not, right? What would 2, 3, or 4 mean for Title?
A47: This has been answered in a previous AMA. The stars are a five point gradient scale for how accurate or correct the submission and information matches the category. Title isn’t actually binary. Especially if the title of the candidate isn’t overtly clear. In the case of a plaque or known work of art, sure. But not everything has a proper formal name leaving things a bit open to interpretation. In those cases, can you discern what the candidate is by the title?

If a concrete statue of a pink elephant was created in October 1999 to commemorate brest cancer awareness month and the title submitted was “Brest Cancer Awareness Pink Elephant Statue”, that should be a five star because it is a descriptive title or official title. If the candidate title is just, “Pink Elephant Statue”… then that might be a 4 star rating. If the title is “Elephant Statue” then perhaps a 3 rating. If the submitted title is just “Cement Animal Statue” that might be a 2. If it is just “Statue” or “Pizza Restaurant”, that might be a 1.
Ingress AMA Archive

… Any time these get brought up, I want to make sure it’s clear that Mr. Krug may or may not have been providing strictly factual answers and rarely seemed involved with OPR and never carried into Wayfarer that we saw. These are also so outdated that I expect anything related to the back end to be no more relevant than a theory.

It’s interesting bringing this question up, thanks for raising it. I’ll give my opinion - when I review, I try to consider, what if I’m the only person reviewing it? Is it fair and just to accept or deny? Are the answers ones I’m comfortable with rating “idk” for something like location? Or is it best to leave it to somebody who may be able to more thoroughly catch what I’ve missed or offer better context at reviewing than I can.

What about you? Does anyone else see anything the old Ingress AMA archives relevant to the discussion?

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Yes, good points. And much discussion was lost when G+ went away. And things change. All reasons why I asked the question.

For this topic, it doesn’t matter where the categories came from or where they’re going.

This issue is that in a review, each pre-loaded category MUST be marked yes or no. The reviewer can’t IDK the given categories, or just that section, without skipping the whole nomination.

I’m guessing that Niantic developers haven’t realized that requiring YES/NO to categories can result in the reviewer skipping the whole nomination because they’re not sure if it’s, say, a fountain, or not.

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Oho, I think I got hung up on a bit of your post to miss the context of categories.

In a lot of these, I will personally go with the one that makes most broad sense. Is it a hiking trail or a biking trail? Idk, but I do know it’s a trail marker, so in worst case I’ll “no” bike/hike and “yes” trail.

There’s also a lot that can have different meaning depending on context. I consider myself an outdoorsman, so “recreational area” to me means hiking, fishing, prairies, hunting, etc, but others could define (and correctly) soccer, basketball, etc.

I guess Niantic has yet to provide much more commentary nor clear up any of it since launch (see the soccer/soccer, pool/pool) that I don’t care enough to give it much thought. I’ve definitely had half the thought while reviewing that I wish I could “idk” the categorize questions.

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I’m asking if Niantic prefers a Skip to IDK. If so, the current process is fine. (And if I’m not sure about a thing, I’ll just skip it without bothering with any answers.)

If Niantic prefers IDK to a skip - they need to change the requirement to pretend to know the Category of an unknown thing.

Part of me honestly wishes at this point that categories would go away. Im sure they are possibly useful on the back end(Im sure its not super useful since ingress cant add them during nomination), but seems they cause more issues than not as far as people thinking if its a category its eligible just by being on the list.

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Are we going to ask for an Oho emooji now?

I suspect that internally, the new UI is still routed to the old system, which uses stars, like, Yes = :star::star::star::star::star:, No = :star:, “I don’t know” = :star::star::star:. That’s why I pick “I don’t know” only if the answer is meant to say “Maybe” (i.e., somewhere between Yes or No). However, if the answer is truly “I don’t know” and not “Maybe,” then I think it’s better to skip.

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Yes to this! The categories have nothing to do with game play.

Maybe they help developers using the map; maybe there’s a developer that only wants to see parks, for example.

Also forgot to add that even back with the old star rating system, the categories were still Yes/No answers. That didn’t change with the up/down/IDK system.

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For years of reviewing, there were no categories. Then they were present, but scoring yes/no was optional.

I think scoring categories became required by accident. Or at least by one team with one Use Case, who didn’t think about it in the whole review flow.

But the history isn’t the point.

Is Niantic happy, that requiring reviewers to yes/no the categories means they can’t IDK a nomination, so have to skip it instead? Skipping is much faster, so is fine with me! But I want to do what’s best for the database and nominator.

The complications snowball. People worry the calculus of fast reviews and their ratings. If Niantic would let us IDK, or mostly IDK a nomination, maybe people wouldn’t set timers to pause before skipping something they don’t know. (Also not the point, but a complication related to the point.)

I pay as little attention and time to the categories as I can, but if a category is there you are forced to respond.
If the choice doesn’t fit an obvious way I say no and type other.
I can then move on.

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The categories matter very little at the moment, and for all the current games they have no impact.

Of course, you don’t get to choose any when nominating on Ingress, so if I have a post box and add in to the title the name of the street it is on, the system somehow picks up street as a category when it’s shown to reviewers (my experience anyways when people have sent me a postbox with a long title assuming it is my nomination).

The only time I’ve seen the categories used is for icons on Geospatial Browser, which is for devs and they probably don’t care.

Maybe in future we will get a Yu-Gi-Oh VRAINS Niantic app and there will be special activations at “Gaming Store” or “Comic Book Store” tagged things but for now it doesn’t matter.

I doubt most people have even noticed you can suggest new categories for existing Wayspots (only in Pokémon GO at present) and that you can do 400.

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I tend to do what @elijustrying has suggested by using ‘other’ if nothing fits well.

But I do wonder if the categories are used for Pikmin Bloom.

I don’t want to say it’s not a trail if it might be a trail. Saying no to Trail and yes to Other is still saying I believe it’s not a trail. (Or fountain, or whatever the suggestion is for the thing.) I DON’T KNOW what it is, therefore I don’t know what it is NOT.

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Don’t overthink something Niantic clearly doesn’t care enough to provide context on at this point.

:100:

They’re cute in theory - wait, no they aren’t.

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