Not Permanent?

Hey there this is the first thing I like to raise and discuss here.

If got serval spot that I suggested for example signs for hiking trails and the outcome is really inconsistent.

What disturbed me the most is the fact that there are some Wayfarers thing its funny to reject somenes as “not permanent” what an metallsign that sticks around for 20years and longer is not permanent? If that the case than we should remove all Spots cause even the Pyramids and the whole Planet is not permanent.

I raised an “Einspruch” objection to Niantic on two of those cases and both became Stopps, sadly I can’t just raise infinite objections cause they are limited.

Long story short I got no issues if an not that solid wayspot is reject
Ed or if an sign of an Hiking trail is rejected as copy but hey Wayfarer should tell people who reject stuff as not permanent what they mean with permanent? A snowman can’t be permanently. An potplant cant be permanent. But an at least 20 year old metallsign for Nature protection zone that at least n Germany will be renewed if it brakes should be permanent.

Aspecially most of the signs that I entered are on really remote locations like a Mile away from every house etc.

Sorry for the rant but im A little bit in rage about those issues.

Greetings from Germany.

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From a reviewer perspective, the UI reads Permanent and Distinct.

So, it could be rejected for not being “distinct”, but the feedback the nominator gets is about permanence.

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Hi @Whiro83
Willkommen im Forum :hugs:
Du kannst hier übrigens auch auf deutsch schreiben, wenn dir das lieber ist. Es gibt hier nämlich eine Übersetzungfunktion.
Die Kriterien zu Wanderwegen und ihren Markierungen wirst du bestimmt kennen (ich hänge den link hier trotzdem nochmal an).
Es ist also wichtig herauszustellen, welche Route man zu erwarten hat, oder einen Entscheidungspunkt auf der Route. Und am allerbesten ist man vorbereitet, wenn zusätzlich noch ein link beigefügt ist, der bestätigt, dass die Route tatsächlich dort entlang führt.
Hast du das alles bedacht?
Ich tagge hier noch zusätzlich @HikeLadyLDK weil sie meiner Erinnerung nach quasi ein Profi auf dem Gebiet “Nominierung deutscher Wanderwege ist”.

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“Distinct” means its well recognizeable and not close to another wayspot marking the same thing (like having multiple spots around the same Swimming pool for a slide, a jumping tower, the pool itself… that would be not distinct, as I learned, as all of those would refer to the same pool). Trail Markers might seem not be very recognizeable, but when you are a hiker, you can spot your current trail’s marker from far away always (as they have strong coloring and a striking symbol), so they are distinct. That, anyways, doesn’t guarantee that a reviewer who doesn’t enjoy hiking KNOWS that. For many those are just tiny stickers/plaques they never even recognize.

As Hike trails are a bit special when it comes to wayspots, Niantic has allowed us to mark the same Hike trail multiple times within reasonable distance (wich should be around 200 meters for the same hike trail), as it would be unreasonable to just mark one point of a 100 km Hike trail. Many reviewers get confused by this and chose “not distinct” if they see another wayspot for the same trail on the Map, even if it is in reasonable distance.

Also some ways of marking a Hike Trail are harder to get through, as some people consider them “Non permanent”, especially those painted with weather resistant colors, to my personal frustration, because they are… (but that would lead to far for now), but also weathered down markers that have not been replaced yet (but will eventually. If thats the problem, just wait for your local hiking association to renew it)

Metal markers should be consoidered permanent easily. I think the problem might be the “distinct” part, if theres a marker of the same trail too close nearby.

Also: When submitting Hike trails, always try to find out things about the specific trail (like the Name (in my Area local trails are marked with a letter and a number, like H10, but they actually have names), where it leads, if it has a Theme, Highlights on the Track, etc.) to be able to write a nice description. “Nice Hike Trail” is just not very appealing as a description.

More important is the supporting Info. You should ALWAYS add a trail Map, and most of the longer trails have websites where you can find Maps, so reviewers can verify the trail actually leads where you pinned the wayspot (as it would be too easy to just fabricate fake spots without a Map to verify the location).

In my community, this trail Map (https://hiking.waymarkedtrails.org/) is very popular, as it has many trails, wich you can select independendly, and it allows to have the coordinates in the Link, so reviewers always get a map of the location you are submitting in (example: Waymarked Trails - Hiking )

It’s very convenient, and also helps you to find hike trails to explore and submit in your Area.

I think many reviewers also just choose an option to directly decline a hike trail when no map is provided. So this might also be the issue here.

Also not all Trailmarkers are alike. As stated, there is the marker itself, wich can be considered more or less permanent ( :face_with_symbols_on_mouth: ) but also the positioning of the wayspot.

Spots on crossings are top-knotch. They help orientation and prevent hikers from going the wrong way, so those are strong candidates.

Anyways, there are also trailmarkers we in germany call “Versicherungszeichen” (Assurance signs) wich exist on longer stretches of the trail to assure hikers that they didnt miss a crossing and are still on the trail. Those are important too, as they prevent hikers from tracking back when in doubt and keep them on the trail with the good feeling of knowing that they didn’t miss a crossing. Those are also good, but less strong than those at crossings. With those you should be careful to not overdo it, but they can be good wayspots too.

As in all things wayfarer, its the reviewers judgement that decides in the end, and so there are stronger and weaker candidates. A weathered down assurance sign on a stretch where other wayspots already exist, or two crossings are not too far from each other, isn’t very likely to go through, while a brand new trailmarker at a crossing is a very good candidate that will most likely go through (always assuming the whole submission is made well, with trail map and description).

I hope you’ll have fun submitting Hike Trails in your Area and my info was helpful to improve your submissions, so you’ll have more success in getting your wayspots approved.

Edit: Seems i replied to the wrong comment ^^ sorry, but it should fit anyways, i think.

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Hey Danke für diese Ausführliche Antwort,

Ja die Beschriebenen Punkte haben wir stehts beachtet und ja ich kann verstehen wenn zwei Schilder nebeneinander hängen das diese als Kopie gehandhabt werde und dann ein Stopp zwei Bilder hat die nicht wirklich zusammenhängen weil 50m entfernt. Aufkleber sind hier gerade sehr schwer… Aber wie du schon sagst sind die “Nicht Wanderer” unter uns haben dafür leider nicht so den Blick. Als Beispiel wir haben hier zwei Routen die Wir aktuell einreichen. Einen europäischen Kulturweg der aus Schildern und Aufklebern besteht. Die Schilder gehen recht gut die Aufkleber eher nicht. Dann noch einen DAV Weg der aus Aufklebern und Baummarkierungen besteht offizieler Wanderweg mit Link und allem trotzdem ist bisher nur eine von ca. 12 akzeptiert worden. Auch gut…

Was mich aber extrem madig macht sind solche Beispiele die als nicht Permanent oder ähnlichem abgelehnt werden. Der Stopp befindet sich mitten im nirgendwo rundherum sind bisher keine Stopps.
Aber gut ich werde mir dein Tips bei einer zweiten Runde nochmal ganz genau zu herzen nehmen.

Quick question. How many of this thing in the entire trail

Frankly i personally tried to submit jogging marker every 100m and they got rejected because its “not distinct”. I am thinking to cut down rhe number of the marker i submit

One every 200 meters should be the minimum according to Niantic (for the same trail).

I am not aware of such a rule being published by Niantic (minimum or maximum) - do you have a source please?

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Yes, something like that happens, and it frustrates me too.

For me, I just resubmit. I know, especially for Hike trails (and more so for long Hikes) it can be a real chore to visit the same trail twice or even three times, but this is how it is. I’ve come to terms with havin to visit the same trail more than once to get the density of wayspots I intend.

Gladly, I have a local community, so sometimes i just give out the task to my friends (we have a little project running to submit all the local Hike trails around my Town so we can play PoGo in Nature more often) or we just walk together and share the work.

For Stickers and painted markers I started to submit them with a little video added about trails are marked in germany, so people can see that stickers (or, as I like to call them, flexible vinyl plaques ^^) or painted markers are just as permanent as other markers. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84EryF7hwo4&t=1s ) it helps a little, but doesnt work wonders.

What we also noticed (just our personal conclusions though) at that it is harder to start a new hike trail in the middle of nowhere, and that Hike trails are more likely to go through if another waypoint of the hike trail already exists in the vincinity, so when starting a new trail, we often choose a particularly nice looking marker and give it an Upgrade, so people can see that the trail has already been marked for the other ones. For this, I like to have Waypoints that refer to multiple hike trails, because those are rarely declined.

I Hope this too helps a little. I appreciate your work a lot, and to be honest, I’d love to see the entire Network of german Hike Trails be on the Lightship map, so all over germany players can enjoy playing Niantic Games when hiking or going for a walk. Keep up the good work :slight_smile:

oof… I think that was published before my time, I just “know” it from community members. I can ask if they have a Link.

Edit:
Just ask a friend. He doesn’t have a Link, just remembers it. It also wasn’t a published rule, just an answer from Niantic staff somewhere in the Forums from last year or even 2023. So its more of a rule of thumb than an official rule, I guess.

This is the latest on Trails & Markers. Before this, the trailmarker-o-meter was the rule of thumb.

If this min/max distance was co-opted from an appeal decision, it would be inaccurate to use this as the standardized treatment for all markers. The decision of that one appeal may have context unique to the POI in question.

That said, each trail and accompanying markers has its own unique context and difficulty in submission/reviewing. The existing clarification highlights the need to make the eligible markers distinctive from the others of the same set. Sadly, the clarification is limited through one image examples but there is an element of the submitter’s content apart from the marker’s context to highlight this distinctiveness. The variability of trails is a strength in the real world but another hill to hike over in Wayfarer. That also accounts for the inconsistency in decisions for these types of POIs.

Thanks for your clarification :slight_smile:

I think keeping the discussion in the community up and share our experience and knowledge here is the best thing we can do, so more people like to find out more about how hiketrails work in wayfarer as well as the real world and build their own judgement on how the should be submitted and when theres too much of them (and other things).

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Hello again I got an really good example today.

This one was rejected for being not being “dauerhaft oder nicht deutlich” too. I guess there are wayfarers around that just use it as easy answer. Nevermind I raised an case on this one lets see what happens.

To be clear I would not be sad if someone says this is not an good wayspot bit this is exactly good to see and its permanent ( its there for over an century now), by the way its of somekind of public intrest to find this playground cause its somekind hidden beyond the garages and bushes.

Lets see

Thanks for the context - this is not to call out, just to clarify. To the best of my knowledge there isn’t such a rule, formal or informal, and there wasn’t one in 2023. So I wouldn’t worry if you or anyone else are submitting markers closer than this (I think you meant maximum). The clarification @paulingzubat has shared is helpful in this regard.

I would completely agree that a directional sign for the playground is not the POI though, but the playground itself is. This is why you got the “permanent and distinct” rejection. People tend to focus on the “permanent” part because the two words are lumped in together, but what this rejection reason is trying to tell you is that this is a generic infrastructure indicator.

This is slightly different from hiking trails and trail markers. If you also nominated the playground, then I don’t think they can both be POIs. If you didn’t, then I would suggest nominating the playground itself instead.

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Well I read all of this but it doesn’t help me a lot. I just think that this ist not the correct category to reject spot like this. May I’m wrong, may I see something different than others.

Nevermind

To make my Point a bit clear. All of them are rejected mostly for not being permanent…
In case of the Stickers I can see the point with the descriptions provided by @HikeLadyLDK and will try to finetune the description. But in the case of signs its just an incorrect rejection cause people may not use the system as they should. To be clear we entered two totally different metal signs nailed on trees and they are realy close together like 15 m or something they where flaged as duplicate and both Photos now appear on same waypoint that fine for me cause they are really close. Even if not correct here is the example. Please use the black car as an Marker to see that they are not the same position an open eye could easily see its not the same tree.

Now those examples that are rejected for not being permanent sometimes another point was added like abuse or grammar…







I got like 18 Refuses like this and my partner and some friendly players around got more. And yes I got the point that not every lamppost can be an Stop like this but at this route, there are parts without any Stop at all and five rejects in a row and other parts are quite crowded.

So what disturbs me the most ist that it seems inconsistent in voting behaviour and probably not clear enough for the voters whats eligible and whats not and to not waste their “jump overs” Überspringen they use not permant as an workaround to just vote faster.

Hope those help to make my points clear.

Here is an Link to the Routes website. Its an 6km long Trail not just hiking but with Cultural context at serval Spots like an old Blacksmith etc.

We just try to make our hometown an better environment for players and push the game but stuff like this is a bit frustrating.

Yeah, sadly, when it comes to Hike trails there is also some Die-Hard opposers of them beeing Wayspots at all, no matter what Niantic says, or they cling as hard as possble to Niantics guidance and reject everything that doesn’t exactly resemble Niantic’s guidance pictures (wich is why I stopped linking them in supporting info…).

Some see Niantics guidance not as guidance, but as commandments from a higher power. And then beeing overly strict about it. Whenever I submit a picnic table for example, i just know this will most likely eat up an appeal. And yes, im very frustrated on Niantic beeing silent on this.

In my opinion, those people should be warned or banned for ubsive behavior in rating, but seems that’s not going to happen. Even in Niantics Appeals team there seem to be quite a few people who need serious education on Hike Trails. (I even got a warning when I had a bunch of trailmarkers rejected, but got it reverted by posting it here in the forum, when in reality the people who should have got warnings and bans should have been the ones voting on those spots, wich I now have to walk up again to to resubmit while they are just sitting on their couch playing King of Wayfarer…)

I have one of those People in my Hometown who threatened to report all my Hike Trail spots… but well, he can if he likes, because I know they’re legit and all it would get him is to be permabanned for abusive removal requests in bulk. But people like this also vote for wayspots…

Theres some weird mindset lurking around in the community that wayspots need to be extra special and only Areas with high people traffic, like Town centers, should have many wayspots and everywhere else there should be few or none of them. I know some of those people, and they’re very persistent in their wrong views, even accusing people like me for mass-submitting “fake spots”. Not getting me wrong: I Like the community in general, but i can not ignore the fact, that some are just here to ruin other peoples fun and beeing as strict as possible on any ruling.

Sadly, theres not a lot I can do do to help you here other than hoping that Niantic will look at voting behavior and send educational Emails and bans out to those people who Auto-reject everything Hike Trail related.

It must be that way, because sometimes i get 90% of my submission through easily, and sometimes a lot get rejected for no apparent reason. seems to be dependant on whos online and voting at that time. But with normal markers, including stickers, i have a very high acceptance rate in appealing them. Wich is not a good solution, because we get few of those, but at least there’s that…

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I feel such an high grade of understanding for my issues with this problematic in your last Statement. Thank you!

Thats my whole point may not the part about some people don’t like Hiking spots at all but the don’t understand they are eligible.

And on the linking in description and better description thing.

I tried out long descriptions and really short ones. Its nearly the same outcome. Like 1/6…

So may my Partner is right and people don’t read those texts as mindfull as I do if they read them at all.

Links are only allowed in the supporting. Just to be clear.

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