Trying to influence other reviewers with description

Hi there, new to the forum. Sorry if this was already topic, pretty sure I’m not the only one with this thought. :wave:

Just got a mail with a warning in it, about moving Stops and telling others why it should be changed in the description. There’s no other way to tell people because for example in case of murals you simply can’t tell where the right location is on a satellite map of the area. In my quite small town there are some active players, but I saw >>1<< other person using Wayfarer beside of me, one person who perhaps could actually tell if it’s the right location or not without any help - for everyone else it’s a guessing game. Anyways, not here to complain.

Just thinking, why there is no more elegant way to describe the right location/ tell others why the change is relevant, without having to misuse the description change. Even half of the submissions I have to check the location for, it’s not sure what to pick because the satellite map as the only source is not enough. Pretty sure in most cases there is a good reason why the submission was done in the first place and having a description for the “Why they want that change?” would be way better than a 50/50 chance of picking the right one.

Talking about “you have been trying to influence other reviewers to vote on your edits in a specific” is a bit frustrating while basically doing free work for Niantic. Duh! Of course I did, because they have to get something to work with. A map which is halfly covered in trees or simple buildings from the top, where you can’t simply tell where the mural is, I had to give clear help to avoid said 50/50.

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The whole point is that reviewers aren’t intended to know which pin is the current pin and which pin(s) are the suggested pins. They’re meant to vote purely based on what they feel is the best placement given the data available to them.

I do agree that in some cases it would be useful to be able to submit a supporting image or something, especially if the Wayspot is in an area where it cannot be seen on satellite or street view, but you kind of already have that option anyway. You can request the edit through the support chat and provide additional evidence such as geotagged images to support your request.

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You can now appeal rejected edits. Until May 15, help chat will do it. After that, you will have to use one of your appeals to do so. But now we get 2 appeals every 20 days. You can send more information then.

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I get it that the facts have to be the center of the whole voting system, as you said, the given data. But that’s exactly the problem because the given data isn’t enough. As I mentioned, there is almost no one in my town to vote on submissions, so people from somewhere else have to vote and of course they don’t know anything about my location.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but having the opportunity to describe the change and still having the option that you, as a voter, are still not sure - is there even a downside to it?

It’s not even about me, I don’t care enough to make a big thing out of it. So I won’t do anything at this point and maybe even avoid changes in the future. Will submit stops, but nothing beside that. I’m only doing Wayfarer and some changes in-game (like location or pictures) from now and then and not on a daily base, but when I do, there’s always a bad taste to it, because either I have to guess sometimes while voting or someone else has to guess on my submission, even when there is a clear answer others simply can’t see.

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but you submitted a description that was not meant to ever be an actual description. that is a misuse of edits.
i also agree that it would be nice to be able to send information, and do use help chat without bothering with submitting an in game edit when i know there is no way that a reviewer could tell.
i understand that this was standard practice for some communities back in the day, but now there is no guarantee that the description edit will show up with the location edit. i hope you don’t get in trouble for trying to do the right thing when you had no other option back then.

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I’m fine. As I said, I’m not here to complain. Simply asking for a way to make the voting easier, when things are not obvious enough.
Just give the opportunity to describe your change and if it sounds plausible, good. When not, click on “I’m not sure”. As easy as that. I’d prefer to hear what a local person has to say instead of going with the 50/50.

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That’s why I don’t complain. :smile: I get that the description isn’t made for it. I saw it somewhere else and thought that’s at least a way to tell others what the right thing is. I see why Wayfarer has a problem with it, because it could end up in the game, but that’s the reason I’d prefer a feature like that. When submitting a regular stop, you’re also able to describe it a bit without the description ending up in the game. So why making simple changes a guessing game?

It’s just a warning, so it should be good.

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I struggle with this one. I think it’s terrible that edits don’t allow a way to give supporting evidence. I don’t like when someone writes “Choose the location on the right.” But i don’t mind descriptive edits that legitimately explain what is going on and how to understand to process the edit. I don’t agree that all of these are abusive and i don’t hold the “party line” on that. As in all things, i use my best judgment when determining how to view someone’s use of an edit to provide supporting info.

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Absolutely, being able to supply some supporting evidence with edits would help a lot. Probably more usefully it should be available when reporting an invalid wayspot.

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Oh hey! You can do that by using the Wayspot Removal link at the top. Use the property owner form. Don’t be freaked out by the wording that you must be the owner or agent. Just fill in the fields as best you can and then attach all your evidence that the wayspot is gone.

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I have so many thoughts on this. I’ve ranted on this in the past. First off I’ll say I used to do this. It was the only way I could communicate with the reviewer. I know most people say “You aren’t supposed to know as a reviewer where the pin was and where is should go”.

BUT WHY?

Why handcuff the reviewer or the nominator? If the pin is in an incorrect location. Why not fix it? I see people here on their soap box preaching the accuracy of the lightship map and making sure things are where they are supposed to be. Right?

Well, arm us with the tools and information to make it right. Are some people going to take advantage, sure. But we can’t worry about abusers and not make the system better for the rest of us.

Have a system in place to punish the abusers and bring common sense to move edits.

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If you’re trying to tell me that I need to pick a specific pin placement because you want it to appear in Pokémon GO, or Ingress, or whatever… I’m going to throw you to the wolves.

If you’re trying to give me details that will allow me to make a more informed decision on your location edit to better ensure the gameboards and the lightship map is accurate. I’m going to let is slide.

Should I have to make that decision? No.
Would a supporting information box for location edits solve this problem?
yes please

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I agree. I think edits need an optional supplemental information box. Although more often towards the end of the older system, I saw more descriptions explaining that they wanted a wayspot removed than something about "do this to put it in my game’. So, the “throwing to the wolves” part… outside of the Netherlands bot system, I guess I just had/have a lot more faith in people that they’re not purposely doing anything terrible and if it was not a correct position or improvement in the wayspot location then it would get voted against/rejected and that’s the end of it.

I also review primarily on my phone and have never used the wayfarer tools plugins. Essentially I go into things, especially location edits, blind but also unbiased apparently (not worried about cell lines or any other inclusion rules). I always assumed that you weren’t supposed to use the plug-ins anyway - (I gather now that it’s okay but I still don’t use any myself). Thus, I just use the satellite imagery as best I can to use my best judgment between two points or points, or vote ‘unable to find best location’ if I can’t tell at all why one point is better than the other. In the old system that seemed best to just have the community vote it out and away. Newer system the AI (ML model) seems to be doing better and handling a lot before reviewers even get to them. I haven’t seen a description edit used incorrectly for context or submissions of stuff in people’s bedrooms and living rooms (examples of my old, obvious 1-star cases) in a long time.

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I tried using that form recently.

When I was reviewing, I came across an edit for Runswick Bay Rescue Boat ( 54.533164, -0.749880 ). This edit may actually be abuse as it was trying to move the Wayspot into a different Level 17 S2 Cell, and the current cell that it’s in has another wayspot that can’t appear in Pokémon Go, so it looks like the submitter was trying to free up the cell, and maybe they need looking into. That being said, that’s not the main purpose of this message.

The wayspot is a lifeboat station. Lifeboats are an emergency service. The current location (and the suggested edit) were both on the boat ramp, directly in the path of where the rescue boat would be deployed. Surely that would be classified as obstructing emergency services, right? So I used the form, and got these two responses…

Obviously the bottom one is the automated one. Do I just ignore Karter and carry on waiting to see if they’ll do anything about this? Or does this mean they’re not doing anything about it because I’m not the owner of the emergency service?

@NianticAaron needs to know when the staff reviewing these forms give this wrong answer.

It is required to send additional information & picture when asking location changes via chat, so why it is not mandatory when asking same thing via game app?

Simple supplementary photo and statement would be a huge help.

In many cases, this means vote random marker based on zero data given.

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Well after a week, the Wayspot is still there, right in the way if the lifeboat needs to be launched. I did reply to Karter’s email, and you obviously tagged @NianticAaron about it, so I guess we just wait and see what happens next?

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Personally i would use helpchat to move Wayspots to there correct position as one can attach photos.

Further to my earlier comment…

@NianticAaron can you please advise on what to do here? On the one hand we’re being told to use the form to report invalid wayspots. On the other hand we have Karter here. Is there any reason Karter won’t act on this Wayspot despite the fact that it’s very clearly obstructing an emergency service?

Did you reply to the automated email? When I replied to it, I went round and round with emails and at one point was told they don’t do removals by email.

When I did not, they actually did process one for me. But I prefer to use the abuse reporting form. Niantic can decide if it is abuse or not.